On Wednesday, 26 de November de 2014 02:23:20 Paul Wise escribió: > On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 3:41 AM, Noel Torres wrote: > > Who our users are? > > Debian's users are the set of people and organisations who use Debian. Exactly. Who they are? The people who chose Debian, are they laptop users? desktop users? sysadmins? The question is important. > That is changing every day as people discover Debian, discover other > systems they like better, discover something about Debian they don't > like, try a system that is new etc. Since there are no monetary or > other restrictions on downloading and installing Debian, we can't know > the exact set of people and organisations who use Debian but there are > some indicators of who they are (see below). But we can have estimates. popcon gives us 98681 installations of libgnomevfs2-common (which may indicate desktop or laptop users) and 96647 installations of apache2.2-bin (which may indicate server users). Not a big difference. > > I expect you don't actually want to know who uses Debian but who the > people involved in Debian want or don't want to be using Debian. > Debian's motto has been "The Universal Operating System" for a long > time and Debian folks often talk of world-domination; I think it is > safe to say that Debian folks want Debian to be used by everyone, > including those who have a particular preference of init systems. I'm sorry but you're wrong here. I actually want to know who uses Debian, not which groups are better suited to the desires of some contraposed groups of developers. > > Here are the set of Debian contributors, presumably most of them use > Debian in some capacity: > > https://contributors.debian.org/ > > Here are some examples of organisations using Debian: > > https://www.debian.org/users/ > > Here are some indicators of how many systems run Debian: > > http://popcon.debian.org/ > http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/os-debian/all/all > http://linuxcounter.net/distributions/stats.html > http://linuxcounter.net/distribution/Debian+GNU_S_Linux.html > https://wiki.debian.org/Statistics#mirrors I already know these. The question is not "how many are there" but "who they are". It is great to know that we have millions of users, but who are they? Specifically, are these machines servers or desktops/laptops? The question is important because most of the distribution about switching to systemd by default has been centered about the important questions of technical feasibility, manpower required to maintain a distribution with more than one init system widey installed, manpower to perform the required changes to support multiple init systems in Jessie, and so on, but it has not been centered about the most important question: our users. It is a gut feeling, one that I share with systemd proponents, that Debian's desktop experience will be better for our users with systemd. It is a gut feeling also, and one that has been widely expresed by others, (with better and worse words) that Debian server admins will not be pleased with an init system which is bigger and does not use shell scripts to start system services. Inconveniences have been stated about binary logs (which has been expressed that it is not true), big binary, tightly related set of binaries, security relying in developers and packagers and not sysadmins, encompassing of not-init-related services, and more. So to know which of these two approachs is better for our users, which is what our Social Contract, 4, impose on us, we need to know who our users are. Without knowing that, we can not be true in deciding about switching or not on upgrades to best serve our users. Regards Noel Torres er Envite
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