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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 07:47:36PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:
> On 2014-07-01, Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> wrote:
> > The question is which of these is a worse outcome for the jessie release.  I
> > come down firmly on the side that breaking desktops on upgrade is a worse
> > outcome than being behind on the latest and greatest user session interface=
> > s.

> We already have broken desktops-on-upgrade with current systemd-shim in
> the archive. And it is even broken after reboot.


Show me a bug report, not FUD.

> It might be bugs in the desktop related packages, but it is also a very
> low priority one.

The bugs are almost certainly not specific to systemd-shim.  It'd be just
peachy if the desktop maintainers would stop blaming systemd-shim for all
their bugs without testing.

> Also, post-upgrade-pre-reboot systems has had issues since forever,

No.  There have been very few instances in which the system was left in an
unusable state after a dist-upgrade, even for desktops.

Stop making excuses for delivering a poor upgrade experience to our users.

> and I think even the upgrade notes recommends to not dist-upgrade from
> within X.

This was written at a time when X itself was considered flaky enough that it
posed a risk to the user's ability to complete the upgrade.  After years of
improvements to X, careful rewrites of display managers to not restart
sessions on upgrade, and fixes to PAM + screensavers to ensure users are not
locked out of their desktop mid-upgrade, there is no longer a good reason
for such a warning.

Unless we bring one back by letting systemd + desktop environments screw us
over anew.

> I know where I would put the resources I can allocate.

Into mailing list threads telling us how we shouldn't expect smooth upgrades
from Debian?

This is a race to the bottom.

Steve Langasek                   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer                                    http://www.debian.org/
slangasek@ubuntu.com                                     vorlon@debian.org

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