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Re: Really, ...

John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> writes:
> On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 04:04:52PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> This is something that you're all (collectively) enabling via your
>> behavior of constantly repeating the same arguments.  Someone has to
>> stop.  Preferrably everyone at once.

> Why should my chain of arguments change?

I don't want you to change your chain of arguments.  I want you to stop
repeating them constantly in debian-devel, thus prompting the people who
disagree with you to constantly repeat *their* arguments, thus prompting
you to constantly repeat *your* arguments, thus prompting me to want to
reach through my computer screen and strangle all of you.  :)

> This is not my point, I'm just trying to explain the sceptics that most
> of their fears are simply unjustified.

Give up.  Seriously.  We've been having this conversation for, what, two
years now?  You're not saying anything that anyone hasn't already heard
before.  Words aren't going to convince anyone; everyone has a hardened
position at this point who is going to form an opinion at all.  And
convincing people isn't required for any effective progress.

> Again, I didn't bring up the discussion, so please don't focus on me.

I'm not, really.  I originally replied to Uoti, and I've also replied to
someone else on the other side of the argument.  I'm only making these
points in response to you because you're the one who replied.  They're
equally applicable to everyone on the systemd side of the discussion, and
most of them are applicable to the anti-systemd side as well.

> I don't think there are particular people to blame. The unwillingness to
> stop discussing the topic comes from both sides.

I agree with this.

> But as long as we treat each other respectfully, I still think it's ok
> to be discussed.

Well, I'm not a list owner and am not going to declare it "not okay" in
some sort of formal way, but as a personal contributor and reader to
debian-devel, I am down on my knees here begging you to please stop
discussing it.  This discussion keeps taking over debian-devel and making
the whole thing annoying and frustrating to read, and doesn't seem to be
accomplishing anything at all.

I really think this is a case where personal experience is going to speak
louder than any possible argument, which is why I think the next step is
to make it simple and documented to switch init systems and see how it
works.  You'll notice, for example, that Steve posted to his blog, and
hence to Planet Debian, how to do this for upstart, and people are
starting to experiment with systemd similarly.

The next step is to start getting *voluntary* native coverage for either
or both of upstart or systemd (or OpenRC, for that matter) from those
package maintainers who feel like adding support.  I, for one, plan on
doing this for at least some of my packages for *both* upstart and systemd
after the freeze is over, provided that there are simple, easy-to-follow
instructions somewhere for how to write the appropriate configuration

Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)               <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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