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Re: Really, ...

On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 04:04:52PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> writes:
> > On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 03:34:08PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> >> At this point, the single most annoying thing about systemd is the
> >> people who are advocating it on debian-devel at every opportunity and
> >> seem incapable of shutting up about it for more than a week, even
> >> though the repeated conversations are both useless to the project as a
> >> whole and don't vary with repetition.
> > And for me, the most annoying thing is the neverending circlejerk of
> > systemd bashing on a non-technical basis.
> This is something that you're all (collectively) enabling via your
> behavior of constantly repeating the same arguments.  Someone has to stop.
> Preferrably everyone at once.

Why should my chain of arguments change? If it constantly changed all
the time, it would mean I'm not really having any arguments but I just
want to win the discussion. This is not my point, I'm just trying to
explain the sceptics that most of their fears are simply unjustified.

> > If anyone of these people would really take the time to read into the
> > design rationales of the available init systems (upstart, systemd,
> > sysvinit, openrc), look at the popularity and the amount of
> > contributors, the decision would be far easier to make.
> simply are not.  It doesn't matter how many messages you write to
> debian-devel, what arguments you muster, and what evidence you have: this
> decision will not be made right at this moment, in the middle of a release
> freeze, prior to completing the Policy work for even testing a migration
> to systemd.

Hey, you don't need to be yelling at me, I didn't kick off the
discussion. I am perfectly fine with the current situation. And you
don't need to enlighten me on the release policy, I am very much
aware that we're in freeze. At no point did I say we have to decide
something now. I merely said that we certainly shouldn't wait forever.

Again, I didn't bring up the discussion, so please don't focus on me.

> It's absolutely impossible that any firm decision will be made at any time
> before the wheezy release is complete.  I think it's rather unlikely until
> we have a clear policy for how people should add systemd support in their
> packages and those package maintainers who chose to do so have started to
> enable it.  (I think we're actually fairly close to such a policy, but
> it's not formalized yet.)

Yes, I am aware of the situation.

> Therefore, every time you continue to argue about this on debian-devel,
> the *only* thing that you are accomplishing is to feed what you accurately
> describe as a never-ending circlejerk, by providing it with more material,
> more ammunition, more fodder for the discussion to continue and continue
> and continue.
> This is all equally true of the people who hate systemd.

Phew, I already feared I would have to take all the blame :).
> It would also be true of the people who advocate upstart or OpenRC, except
> you'll notice that they've largely stopped discussing the topic except
> when they can't stop themselves from rebutting some specific technical
> point.  That's wise.  It's worthy of emulation.

I don't think there are particular people to blame. The unwillingness
to stop discussing the topic comes from both sides. But as long as we
treat each other respectfully, I still think it's ok to be discussed.

It's not that I am not willing to learn. I'm always willing to give in
with my argumentation if someone actually comes up with valid
counterarguments (with what Harald Jenny said, for example).

> Please, let's *stop talking about this*, apart from the much more
> specific, straightforward, and *useful* discussion of what further work is
> required to enable those who wish to do so to run systemd as their init
> process in Debian.

Sure, I would love to switch the topic :).


 .''`.  John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' :  Debian Developer - glaubitz@debian.org
`. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de
  `-    GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546  0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

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