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Re: Recommends for metapackages

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 08:04:18PM -0400, Jeremy Bicha wrote:
> On 11 July 2012 14:21, Noel David Torres Taño <envite@rolamasao.org> wrote:
> > Installing N-M breaks unrelated software.
> I don't claim to be a networking expert, but I believe half the
> conversation here is based on wrong or outdated information. I
> encourage those who think NetworkManager (NM) doesn't play well with
> ifup/ifdown to please read
> http://wiki.debian.org/NetworkManager#NetworkManager_in_Squeeze

The information on that page is outdated, then.

On my system for example, it shows eth0 as unmanaged (correctly) but puts
its grubby mitts into br0 and usb0, both of which are listed in

Being "unmanaged" also makes it think the interface is down.

Also, the page you linked to includes this line:
# understand that NetworkManager is not intended to serve the needs of all
# users
So if n-m is not supposed to be universal, it must not prevent people from
doing things not supported by it, either by standing aside or being

> Furthermore, not having NM running breaks the Network panel in System
> Settings (gnome-control-center).

It makes it give an error message.  This is the only regression, and it
really should check the presence of NM instead of blindly show that icon. 
Even then, it's not a show stopping bug.  And getting rid of a
non-functional icon from the systray is worth having another in some
section of a settings panel (even if I'd prefer having neither).

> NetworkManager makes connecting to WiFi points much much easier

Which is related to it messing with interfaces other than WiFi... how?

> while at the same time NOT breaking wired connectivity.

We wouldn't have this long thread if it indeed did not break it.

> Oh, and NM works just fine for USB tethering with my Android phone too.

Not for mine (N900) nor my brother's (some Android, can't check until he
visits again).  NM recognizes it as "Nokia N900" but tries to configure it
despite being told not to, and it keeps resetting it every a few seconds
so you can't fix it up manually.

> GNOME considers NM to be part of GNOME Core, therefore gnome-core
> depends on it.

It also wants systemd and mono, yet on Debian you can install without

> If you're allergic to NM, either don't install gnome-core;

Gnome has enough components to make installing it without help of meta
packages an unreasonable idea for anyone not deeply involved with Gnome
development.  And we're talking about "-core" not "all bells and whistles".

> let NM install but tell it never to run

The last time I tried, /etc/resolv.conf became:
"# Generated by NetworkManager\n\n".

This is also inventing a way around dependencies: if a daemon is not
supposed to be ever run, it shouldn't be installed in the first place,
otherwise the packaging system has no way to specify actual requirements.

> or follow one of the several workarounds already posted to this list.

You mean, using dpkg --force-depends and not using apt at all?  Or making my
own equivs metapackage (which I can do but most users can't)?

Copyright and patents were never about promoting culture and innovations;
from the very start they were legalized bribes to give the king some income
and to let businesses get rid of competition.  For some history, please read

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