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Re: xcdroast does no longer work with wodim: Who to blame?

On Mon, 2 Mar 2009, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:

Memnon Anon <gegendosenfleisch@gmail.com> writes:

But! From a user-only perspective:

Do I think that the software Joerg Schilling provides is superior?

I've tried it back when Debian still had a cdrecord and that, on
request by Joerg Schilling, did not include the dvd burning patch. One
had to rebuild the cdrecord package with the "dvd=yes"
manually. Debian users where deprived of DVD burning in the official
package just to accomodate Joerg Schilling. So much for the then
maintainer not trying to work with him.

Yes, branching to a version which included DVD support made sense in 2005. It
makes no sense today. The dvd version has been open source since about 2006.

The license issue is problematic, especially since copyright laws differ in
different countries. Derivative works is an especially tricky concept since it
is so poorly defined  in law, and the courts have been all over the place on
it. It would be really really nice if Debian released Moglin's opinion that
they received re the cdrtools issue and Schilling released his, and Moglin
allowed them to do so.

Too much of this issue has become embroiled in really really childish
vindictiveness. Schilling has both written a good piece of software and has
been willing to extend it and support it, something that noone else has
apparently been willing to do. That should count for a lot.

On the license issue, all sides are to a large extent on the same page.
Schilling has released his stuff with an open source license (CDDL is
certainly that), and the requirement of the GPL that both the source code AND
the build system be and remain available to future users is guarenteed. At that point, the fact that the two sides cannot step over the final tiny
hurdles is a real shame.

The issue is one of the users. They do not give a damn if Schilling is a
difficult and arrogant SOB or if the Debian people put principle above all
else. They just want good software, which works, not just on the most popular
brands but on all brands of CD, DVD, blueray, ... and to be assured that it
will keep working. Surely in all of this it is that user that needs to be kept
topmost in mind.

First I installed his cdrecord and then it still just said the media
is to big for a CD. So you hunt some more and find the DVD
version. Grudgingly I installed that and it complained about not
having a license key. The fun of non-free software. Some more hunting
to find out there is a key at no cost for linux users and getting that
installed and it still couldn't burn DVDs.

That is an old story. It no longer applies.

apt-get source cdrecord
sensible-editor debian/rules   to set dvd=yes
debuild -us -uc
sudo dpkg -i cdrecord*deb

Worked perfectly ever since.

I saw several distributions turning away from Schilli software, yet,
several of them returned. People are lazy, they do not always write
bug reports, even if they should. But I saw people on debian.user
and debian.user.german, who got their devices working, when
Debian packages failed.

This might be cruel but I don't care at all about those people. Software
does not fix itself. By not reporting bugs they have lost the right to
complain about it. Call it a cost of free/open software. Nobody claims
Debian software is free as in beer, only free as in speech. It just
makes me sad that people are unwilling to spend the 5 minutes it takes
to run reportbug and detail what burnder they have and how the problem
presents itself.

Bug reporting is important, but more important is that the maintainers find
the bugs before they are reported. Schilling has demonstrated that he is
willing to do that.

I am not certain, I am no "code writer", still, this is my impression.

There seem to be experiences going both ways. That is a common effect
in forks. Both will fix the bugs that people report or experience
themself and those don't always match.

But the great maintainers are the ones that find the bugs before others report
them and bugs that they would never come across themselves.

So, do I say, Debian should revert its policy?

If Debian as a whole considers this software as non-free, or at least
as debatable, fine. Thats a reason, and I certainly trust debian more
than a single person or some obscure emails.
Debian stands for freedom, and every single debian user knows:
If you use debian, there (might be some, but generally speaking)
are no compromises to this. Great!

But, on the other hand, please do not try to stress that the debian
fork is as good as Schillings. It is not necessary, the
non-free argument is enough!

ACK. At this point the quality of the original and fork are completly
irrelevant and I hope more people do see that. In Debians eyes the

No they are NOT irrelevant. For the users, that is the key. And surely it is
the users ( the customers) who should be the prime consideration.
I agree that legal issues are a concern, but they are almost always something
that can be worked through.

original is just undistributable and therefore the fork is the only
option, no matter how bad it is (and it works for me [tm]).

Ah yes. I works for me, the hell with anyone else.

To all the maintainers of the fork:

I sincerely beg your pardon, if my impression is just wrong,
and I really consider every work for debian important.

This is my impression, and as this thread more and more
circles around "bugs in wodim" etc., especially, since a posting,
stating that wodim does _not_ work for everyone as fine,
gets the "You sent no bugreport" answer (which is true!, but imho
reflects the experience of a lot of people out there)
, I wanted to share my impression.

I think the "You sent no bugreport" answere reflects some frustration
of the authors of the fork. It is verry frustrating to be torn down
for how bad the fork is without being given any hint in what way and
how it could be fixed.

Sorry, that is how it works. He has reported a bug. Here. If what he says is
right, namely it does not work with SCSI it is a bug which should have been
caught before it ever went out the door

As such dear authors keep your spirits high. Your efforts are highly
valued and not wasted.

Well, really they are. There is this piece of software which does everything
they want it to do, and they are tinkering with an old version of that same
software, trying to keep up, and not really wanting to do so.
  This whole thing would be a farce if it were not a tragedy.
Maybe it is impossible to bring Schilling and Debian together. Sometimes
tragedies do occur, but that is where the efforts should go.

Someone in this thread mentioned something like, that users are clever
enough to not fall for this wrong statements, that the fork has more bugs.
Sorry, I do. Still, I think debian is better of without Schillings software.

/me should just shut up.
Feel free to correct me or  ignore my posting.
I certainly will say no more on this topic...

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