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Re: utnubu-desktop for the masses

On 4/23/06, Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org> wrote:
> Gustavo Franco blogged:
> > In Ubuntu there' s ubuntu-meta source package that results in
> > [ubuntu-minimal][1], [ubuntu-standard][2] and [ubuntu-desktop][3]. They're
> > metapackages and the list of packages is built with a tool called germinate
> > based on a seed in the web. I've a [branch of cjwatson' ubuntu seed][4] and
> > asked him to upload [germinate][5] in Debian, he did! To avoid confusion, i've
> > renamed "our ubuntu-meta" to utnubu-meta and it will be included in [utnubu
> > alioth group ][6]in svn soon.
> I've very confused by the approach you are taking here. Debian already
> has its own way to install a desktop, namely tasksel's desktop tasks.
> Any help with maintaining that would be appreciated; but introducing a
> competing thing taken from Ubuntu into Debian doesn't seem at all
> helpful from my perspective, unless I've misunderstood what you're
> doing.
> This seems to be a metapackage that depends on 239 packages[3]. Debian
> has already rejected using large metapackages such as that for many
> reasons, including:
>  * The way they clog up britney by tying a lot of otherwise unrelated
>    packages together. (As a sometime member of the release team, I feel
>    like I'm in the shower seeing the shadow of a figure with a knife.)

That's up to me open a RC bug to avoid this problem, and i plan to do
so based on your feedback.

>  * Their general fragility, breaking if any one semi-unimportant package
>    in the metapackage is removed from testing for any reason, or is
>    unavailable for any one architecture for any reason.

Yes, that's a problem but i would like to see these metapackages only
in sid, see below my purposes...

>  * Their all or nothing nature making it a pain to put them onto CDs,
>    if any one semi-unimportant package doesn't fit the whole metapackage
>    won't go on.

I'm trying to address part of the divergence here, not promising that
we will have the same solution ready to be released with Etch. You
known, it's a wip thing and i've more things in mind for that. The
fact is that i've talked with Otavio Salvador about a 'utnubu task' or
something like that in the installer. I think it would depend on some
infrastructure to the tasksel knows if he's into the installer itself
and which image (netinst, ...), in a system already installed, ... .

>  * Their lack of a clean way to remove the metapackage (semi-addressed by
>    aptitude).

Yes but pointless IMHO, since there's no plan around to remove or
check the usability of others metapackages.

> We tried it, it doesn't work for us[4]. I still have the scars. Tasksel
> avoids all of these problems. If you are interested in maintaining
> tasksel's desktop or other tasks, that could be arranged.

I'm interested in a "utnubu desktop/minimal/standard" now in sid so
you see my metapackage upload. With Etch, i would like to add a
"utnubu desktop task" yes, but as i pointed out above it seems that we
will need more than a simple task. I can help with code if -boot

> (...)

Closing, i don't think we should discard utnubu-meta in sid now. It
would be a good test and will show us how much work needs to be done
in utnubu front until Etch. Btw, i already received some 'off blog'
feedback from Ubuntu users that would like to move from Ubuntu Dapper
(that will be released in June) to Debian Sid back again. They're all
power users, of course.

-- stratus

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