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Re: [ad-hominem construct deleted]

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Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
>  It's also about false statements like "We sync our packages to Debian
> regularly," because that simply doesn't happen for quite a lot of us,
> otherwise all these heated discussions wouldn't happen.

They have their own timetable. They do their stabilization differently
than debian does. Ubuntu freezes the packages at a certain point in time
and only does manual syncs after that. "Regularly" could be once a year
and still be regular.

What do you want? decide which packages get to certain ubuntu release?
Didn't they just offer you that chance?

>>They are really investing time on the co-operation,
>  If they were, why would there be so much fuss about it? Again, speaking
> for myself, I haven't noticed such a thing for myself, and there
> wouldn't be the need for utnubu if there were, don't you think so?

As i see it utnubu is the middle ground for debian and ubuntu people.
It's something that debian people want to do to keep up with Ubuntu. I
see utnubu as a good thing, it solves problems that the people behind
utnubu want to get solved. They decided to do the work instead of
throwing it back to Ubuntu and saying "It's your problem to make me
agree with you". As utnubu page says:
"We are about cooperation, not confrontation, with Ubuntu."

co-operation needs co-operation from both parties!

>>they are creating tools to help this. What are the Debian people
>>doing, they are bitching about Ubuntu people not putting their backs
>>in to it.
>  Why should I pull something from Ubuntu? And find most of the time that
> there isn't anything to pull? Why does it work for Debian that Debian
> notifies its Upstream Developers, but not for Ubuntu to notify its
> Upstream Developers, which in this case is Debian?

You are not forced to pull anything from Ubuntu. But you should remember
that the packages that are being worked on outside of the ubuntu main
are maintained by a small group (when compared to the people in debian)
of people. They have limited time to push all changes to upstream and
usually the changes are just for the packaging anyway.

Also, you should remember that there are people that have said that they
don't want to be in contact with ubuntu. So it's not an easy thing to
notify debian people about the changes in their packages when some
people get offended by the notification itself. If you have a solution
for this, let me know. Or better yet, let the Ubuntu people know.

>>It takes less effort to bitch and moan than to work together, maybe
>>that's the reason.
>  I ask you: Why should I try to work together with someone who didn't
> had at least the sign of coursey to notify people they base their work
> on about what they are doing, or at least _that_ they are doing it? If I
> don't know that they are doing it, why should I get the idea about that
> it might be a good idea to work with them? I know what of my packages
> are in Debian, and everyone can get a list quite easily through several
> different interfaces. In the mail this fuss is all about there is only
> one huge list which does have only package names, no maintainer, no
> nothing that allowes for easy usage of that list. It might be useful for
> people maintaining one single package, but for people with 10 or more
> it's getting annoying to have to pull the data out from there....

You do realize that your work is out there for anyone to take and to
modify. I agree that for the modified packages it should be more clear
that the package has been modified by ubuntu and the maintainer or some
other field should reflect that. But again, some people are offended if
the maintainer field is changed to something ubuntu specific for the
modified packages. As before it's not an easy task, you get burnt if you
go either way.

And about pulling the changes, did you notice these:

Debian side:

Ubuntu side:

I had a hard time finding your packages that were modified in ubuntu, so
maybe that's something ubuntu people should work on. Other htan that,
you should easily be able to pull changes to your packages from there,
if you feel like it. A good indicator that your package has been
modifies in ubuntu is the string ubuntu in the package version.

- - S
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