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Re: Spam in the lists out of control

Hi Marek!

You wrote:

> Really? So there is not a single difference between spam and tmda
> challenges? So your claim is that every message you do not want to receive
> is spam, as I understand. 

IMO any _unsolliced_, automatically generated message is spam, yes.

In the case that your TMDA is trigged by a message that I sent, the TMDA
challenge is not spam by this definiton.  (Although I would still ignore
it and put the sender in my blacklist, but that's an unrelated issue.)

OTOH, I do consider such a message to be spam in the case that you send
me a TMDA challenge while I didn't send you a message first.  It is
_your_ responsibility to ensure that this doesn't happen, not mine to
filter your spam from my mail.

> Well, then I would consider 70% of mails on the
> debian lists spam, since I don't care about various flames that go on on the
> lists, or "problems" with binary software licenses and other equally
> irrelevant issues. 
> And the fact that I subscribed to the debian lists does
> not mean I _want_ to receive the messages listed above, just the same as the
> fact I have an email address doesn't mean I want to get spam. 

This is a bullshit argument.  You are perfectly free to unsubscribe from
the lists (to which you chose to subscribe in the first place) if you
don't like their content.  After you unsubscribe, you will get no more
messages, no bandwidth is wated, no one is annoyed and you won't have to
filter any messages.

> Both having
> the email address and being subscribed to a mailing list is voluntary, and
> neither means anybody's consent to receive unsolicited mail. So if we take
> your definition of spam (as seems to be apparent from your assesment that
> tmda challenges equal v*agra spam) then most of the mail traffic IS spam.

Yes, indeed, most of the mail traffic is spam.  82% to be precise.
But no, a mailinglist is not unsolicited mail (regardless of whether or
not you like the content of the posts), TMDA challenges are, in case they
are sent in reaction to a spam or virus.

> So, is the world still black and white? 

Yes.  There are people who spam and there are those who don't.

> You say that I put the onus on the receiver. You're right to some extent.

Ah, at least you admit that your TMDA challenges are annoying.

> But, call me naive, I believe in people (sometimes) helping each other when
> the intent is clear and not harmful for anybody. By that token, I would
> expect that you (or anyone else) who feels offended by the tmda challenges
> comes up and says "hey, dude, are the challenges necessary? 

Ah, and how exactly are we supposed to reach you without going hrough
the TMDA challenge thing?

> Is there
> anything you can do so that I don't receive them?". Then the party
> generating the challenge would come back saying "sure, here is a set of
> procmail/maildrop/spamassassin/whatever filters that will make them
> disappear from your mailbox. Thanks".

As with other types of spam, I prefer opt-in systems over opt-out. 
Therefore I propose is to configure all MTA's to deny all TMDA
challenges by default. Those who really want to accept those
messages, can then simple enable this in their config files.

>  Instead, what we get is "Hey dude! Get
> the fuck lost with your spam! I don't care about your problems, get away,
> I've got my problems you prick! You're a spamming asshole, loser!" or
> something in that spirit.

Well, spammers tend to have these kinds of effect on people.

> Now, that's a true cooperation spirit.

So spamming innocent people is "a true cooperation spirit" in your

Kind regards,
| Bas Zoetekouw              | GPG key: 0644fab7                     |
|----------------------------| Fingerprint: c1f5 f24c d514 3fec 8bf6 |
| bas@o2w.nl, bas@debian.org |              a2b1 2bae e41f 0644 fab7 |

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