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Re: Debian needs more buildds. It has offers. They aren't being accepted.

An outsider point of view on thread:

Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au> wrote:

>> > > Apparently developers waiting for their packages or 
>> > > depencies compiled should just stfu and wait indefinetly until
>> > > the silent gods running the buildd have mercy upon you and compile
>> > > the package.
>> > They should help if they're able, work around the problem if they need
>> > to, or do other things.
>> And who judge who is able to help? And why? And what's the qualification of
>> that person to be able to judge about others?
> That's odd, I thought you were objecting to me insisting people have
> qualifications (in particular being a developer) before judging others.
> In any event, as I've already said, the people who do the judging are
> the ones in charge of the area; and the reason why they're in charge
> is because they have the most experience in the area and know about the
> problems that tend to come, including the ones that aren't widely known
> or documented. Their qualifications are their experience and knowledge.
>> > They shouldn't stir up trouble when there simply
>> > isn't a serious problem...
>> Aha? Starting a discussion is "stir up trouble"? Interesting. 
> Starting a discussion is one way of stirring up trouble, yes. There are
> lots of ways of discussing something, calling on the DPL to remove people
> is one of the one's that come under the "stirring up trouble" heading.
>> > > Just to make myself clear, most buildd maintainers do a spectacular
>> > > job, all my (mostly stupid) questions and requests have been handled
>> > > timely.
>> > ...as you point out.
>> I believe you missed the little word "timely" now or ignore the qt-x11-free
>> problem lately. Otherwise you should clarify your definition of "timely",
>> please.
> I have no idea what you're talking about. qt-x11-free 3.2.3-2 was uploaded
> on Jan 22, and wasn't built on arm 'til Feb 2nd (11 days) and mipsel
> 'til the 8th (17 days). That's not a crisis, it's a delay. If you have
> were a developer, and had a particular urgent need for them, you'd've
> been able to build and upload them yourself.
>> > One of the problems with not being a developer is that no matter how
>> > helpful you are, you don't get any particular say in how Debian's
>> > run. If your patches are rejected, or your suggestions are ignored,
>> > it's just tough luck. That changes a little when you're a developer;
>> > but Nathanael's got no one to blame for not being a developer but himself.
>> Have you asked him about his reason not applying as NM? When not, how can
>> you say he has no reason to blame? 
> Because no one else can apply for him, and there's absolutely nothing
> difficult about applying.
>> Have you asked me why I'm not a DD,
>> although many people tried to persuade me to become one?
> *shrug* It's your choice not the be a DD, and I'm pretty sure I remember
> seeing you throw a temper tantrum and refuse to join in the past. But hey,
> that's your choice and your right. But if you make that choice, you need
> to live with the consequences, one of which is that your opinion on what
> Debian should or shouldn't do doesn't really count for much.

   #4 Our Priorities are Our Users and Free Software 

Is it just a pretext for non-free programs inclusion? I'm wondering,
by reading so many times that only DD opinions "count for much".

>> > > I
>> > > dont remember you saying so, thats not the point. However, I believe
>> > > that is a good guideline, we shouldnt discriminate people just because
>> > > they are not DD.
>> > People who aren't developers have less experience working with Debian
>> > almost by definition:
>> Uh? That's obviously nonsense.
> This from someone who doesn't know how to find out who's on the technical
> ctte, or how to find the public archives of their mailing list? Oh well,
> obviously another thing you don't know is the knowledge you're missing
> out on.

The whole point is way too much confusing. Someone wrote "People who
aren't developers have less experience working with Debian almost by
definition". What does experience working with Debian mean? Working
with the operating system Debian or with the Debian community? While
"by definition", a DD surely have good chances to have greater
experience working with the Debian community than anybody else, a DD
does not necessarily at all now more about the Debian OS than a non-DD. 

But what annoys me more in this discussion is the tone of the

Can't you keep off the discussion personal attacks? Can't you just
stick to facts and avoid any comments based your very own opinions
about others persons involved knowledge? 

If you cannot, you do not deserve a position when you can decide who
should be able to contribute or not. You are proving that  "the people 
who" should "do the judging are" not necessarily "the ones in charge
of the area", because technical knowledge in no way means management

Your attitude, from the outside, clearly does not speak in favor of
Debian. It just looks like a miserable conflict of power which have
nothing to do with improving Debian. I hope things are not what they
seems to be. A pity.

Mathieu Roy

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