Re: Debian menus policy
"John H. Robinson, IV" wrote:
>
> On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 02:02:59AM -0800, Erik Steffl wrote:
> >
> > you would not loose it, the left click on root window is not used in
> > window maker at all.
>
> left button: select windows (click, drag, makes a box, selects the windows
> in that box -- this is described in the FAQ[1]
>
> middle button: Window List Menu
>
> right button: Applications Menu
so what? left click is not used. pressing button and moving mouse
while the button is still pressed is NOT click, it's drag. and it's
fairly common for it to have different functionality (check the other
email with ms win & right click/drag on desktop behaviour).
> > ms win: right click on desktop brings up menu, right drag selects a
> > region (icons within rectangle). note that it's exactly the same
> > behaviour window maker would get with proposed left click = menu.
>
> except you lose the select window functionality, uness you patch the
> source code. then you have seriously different behaivour between the
> Debianised WM and a ``pure'' WM.
why would you loose the select window functionality? explain!
are you saying that window maker cannot use bind different actions to
drag and click? then it should be fixed. it should provide ability to
bind actions to at least click, double click and dragging (move), the
other gestures are optional (as they are not widely used).
> > I don't think any of the above is problem (generally, is there anybody
> > who has problems with any/all of the above (as far as mixing of
> > drag&click goes, not unrelated problems)) so I don't see why it
> > shouldn't be used for window maker...
>
> because it is a severe change in WM's functionality. i use WM because
> it is WM, and not because it is a lot like the Explorer window manager.
>
> now, if it were made a configuation option, then i would not be so averse
> to it.
>
> now, what is wrong with the current scheme? remember, mouse buttons are
> redifineable by the user, anyway, so as soon as you say ``left button''
> but the user is left-handed, and they defined button 1 to be the right
> button, you are misleading the user.[2]
I have noticed that left button/right button is avoided in
documentation, they use different names for these so that it is valid
for both left and right handed mappings of mouse buttons. I guess that
in most user would be aware of left button meaning the right button on
her/his mouse (it wouldn't be reversed if user didn't ask for it)
> so you can never write generic instructions that are right all the time.
>
> so i ask: what problem are you trying to solve?
it was suggested that it would be good to have debian menu easily
accessible, if possible by doing the same action in any environment. and
IMO the left button click on root window is fairly good candidate since
it's already used for this purpose in some environments and can be used
in others as well, even though perhaps not in ALL of them.
> -john
>
> [1] http://www.windowmaker.org/faq-chapter4.html#72
>
> [2] certainly, you could assume that the user would ``know'' that the
> buttons have been redifined. but on the same token, you could assume
> that the user would know that, say ``bring up the Applications menu''
user probably asked for left handed mouse button mappings. did not ask
for application menu. user might not even know that there is an
application menu, but IMO it's reasonable to expect that he will try to
click somewhere (in sheer panic caused by this new system that starts
and then ... nothing) and chances of hitting root window are pretty good
(even more so if there's nothing else on the screen:-)
> is generic, works for pressing the start button looking thing on IceWM,
> or a right click with WM, or however your window manager handles it. you
> could even have a footnote or a section that describes the different
> behaviour of the window managers!
>
> i _like_ having my choice. i do _not_ want all my window managers to act
> all the same. if i wanted that, i'd use the ``Do As I Say'' distro, that
not _all_ the same. just giving the user some starting point. e.g.
being able to manipulate windows by clicking and dragging various parts
of window decorations (this is basically implemented), easy access to
debian menu (to have access to applications) etc. it does not have to be
exactly the same. perhaps right clicking is good enough (as long as one
of the three possible mouse clicks on the root window brings up the
menu)
being able to change WMs is IMO one of these basic requirements (even
though it's not that imporant for beginners, unlike the above
requirements that are mainly for beginners).
> had only one MUA, one xterminal emulator, one window manager, one of
> this, and one of that. instead, i use Debian - where the choice is mine.
you have choice (you can still change it), the thing is that default
configuration should be somewhat consistent so that user that starts
given window manager (desktop environment) is not left wondering what to
do.
e.g. like I am now with nautilus - how you exit the damn thing? when
it manages desktop you simply can't (even when you do close all windows
the desktop is still managed by nautilus) and now that I configured it
to not manage desktop and clicked on close all windows (there's no menu
item exit/quit or similar) there are some nautilus processes still
running (few of them):
32514 ? S 0:00 nautilus-news
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:nautilus_news_view_factory:041601
--oaf-ior-fd=15
actually I just noticed that they went away after some time (but oafd
and gconfd-1 are still running - because of nautilus?)
erik
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