Re: RH and GNOME
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On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Scott McDermott wrote:
> Petra, Kevin J Poorman on Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 11:05:52PM -0500:
> > > I have never heard of a Debian user "defecting" to RH. The reverse, is
> > > commonplace.
> >
> > wow aren't we living a sheltered life. Debian _users_ defect to rh all the
> > time,
>
> Ok, then perhaps I am sheltered. My opinion is that if they want to
> defect, let them, they are kruft.
>
> > because the knowlage of alien is not comon place enouph.
>
> If you can't figure out how to do it then use a distribution that
> caters to you. It's not exactly hard to learn of alien doing a simple
> web search or reading through package descriptions. Just how much of a
> handhold would you suggest?
well, we advertise quite loudly that we have a apache package, lets make
it just as clear that a debian system CAN install RPM packages... and let
it be known every time someone brings up the "best qualityes of debian" ..
alein should be one of them.
>
> > dpkg should be made to call alien on a rh package automaticly ... ie:
> > dpkg -i some_package.rpm would trigger alein, and then dpkg... so that
> > it's automatic, and easy for newbies, and non-power users, to install
> > rh packages.
>
> This strikes me the same as aliasing -i to rm proper. I would want to
> remove it instantly, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I suppose this
> wouldn't be so bad though, write a little script. Perhaps though, a
> generic "package handler" would be better than using this somewhat
> kludgy fix.
Great idea. lets do it.
>
> > > New users are almost certain to use RH. This is not necessarily a bad
> > > thing, but it does mean that RH has a higher growth rate. When Debian
> > > growth rate goes *down* then there is a problem; I don't see this
> > > happening, it's not even plateaued.
> > >
> > > RH is largely for new users and is the obvious choice -- I still
> > > recommend it to new users. Debian is the obvious choice for the mature
> > > user.
> >
> > Why? ... this is what I've been trying to tell you all. new users will
> > most likely install red hat. WHY? ... WHY? ...
>
> Visibility, primarily. Less complexity. Caters more to newbies. I
> say, *good* -- *why overlap*, let them graduate to Debian. Why is this
> perceived as a race, I don't understand.
execpt, most don't "graduate" ... and as to complexity ... linux is
linux... the only thing less complex on there system, is there install
system, and there user suport system.
>
> > because we (debian) is not new user/user freindly ... we should fix
> > this problem ...
>
> I would like you to tell me why this is a problem, why it needs to be
> fixed, why Debian developers should bother doing these sorts of things.
> No one really wants or cares to do it anyways, that has the capability
> to -- *they* don't need it. And IMO it encourages people not to learn.
> Debian struggles with less resources anyways, why waste it. Just keep
> it the clean, mature distribution, instead of populating our user space
> with idiots, to be blunt. Have you taken a look at the RH lists?
> There's a few old hands there, among hundreds of morons. I don't have
> bias either (but granted I stopped following both debian-user and
> redhat-list a few months ago), I just keep track for my own interests, I
> don't want my self-maintained installation to become useless to me when
> the whole Linux world has switched to this or that and I've been left in
> the dust. What seems obvious to me as an outsider, though, is that
> Debian is not for idiots, while it seems RHs very goal to get it in the
> hands of as many idiots as possible. Perhaps a middle ground is in
> order, but I think it would be *really* sad for Debian to change its
> orientation just for more numbers. Really, who cares, the project is
> self-maintaining as it is, it's really just for the people that maintain
> it, who cares about everyone else. I don't know the history of Debian,
> and I haven't read anything about it at all, but it seems to me that
> it's the hacker distribution, put together by hackers, for hackers, in a
> way to encourage proficient hacking. So really I don't see anything
> contradictory with not caring about newbies.
>
> > I wonder ... should I file a bug? maybe you will listen to me then
> > instead of accuseing me of just trying to turn debian into another 95
> > wantabe.
>
> Sorry but I made no such accusation, and I really don't think that's
> what any Linux distribution is anyways...you'd have to seriously screw
> up your motives and compromise your integrity for that to be true.
> Relax man, I know you care :) I think everyone here does, hence
> conflict when "His care is misguided! Here's the right path! But no we
> want to go in the direction you fool!" :) Democracy at its finest. This
> is what attracts me to Debian.
funny way of showing it.
>
> > > It's a matter of efficiency. People that have no interest in computers
> > > but just need certain apps for productivity should not have to worry a
> > > whit about their OS. This is the place for Windows and while some
> > > aspects could certainly be improved and refined, it does a damned good
> > > job. Somebody who actually works with computers, operating systems,
> > > networking, should obviously invest so as to acheive greater efficiency
> > > later and be able to manipulate their computer on a lower level, have
> > > greater modularity, flexibility, et cetera.
> >
> > why, why are you defineing linux as a second hand os, with things like
> > kde, and gnome and staroffice, or aplixware anyone can be productive ...
> > without having to use win95... why are you happy to let those who hate 95
> > still have to use it because your not willing to spend a little time to
> > help them get started in linux.
>
> Second hand? I think you read that wrong, perhaps you could clarify
> exactly what I said that degrades Linux? And BTW do people really hate
> Win95 that use it and haven't been exposed to better?
you seemed to indicate complatenness at the thought of linux being a os
for those who "work with computers, operating systems, networking, ..." To
me that means your happy to let others swing in the breaze with 98.
leaving 98 mainstream.... and linux second hand... which is wrong IMO.
yes some do hate 95 even thought they have not been exposed to new
things... I was that way 2 years ago, lots of ppl I know hated it, and
hate it more now that they no something better exists... the reason they
don't convert... apps. so they can't use it at work ... and users help
when there starting is the main reason they don't install it at home.
>
> > > I think that RH, GNOME, KDE, et all are attempts to make Linux viable
> > > for people that don't want to learn about their computer, and while this
> > > is a valid goal -- it's really not what Debian is about, from what I
> > > gather from the people here. Debian has no need to rid themselves of
> > > the assumption that the people using it care about their computer and
> > > are here to learn and use for the long-term pay off.
> >
> > then debian should redefine what it is about... in a more clear manner.
>
> Why do you set Debian's goals? And what is ambiguous that needs
> redefinition or clarification?
I don't set the goals ... and as far as I can tell aside from release
goals the only goal of debian is to provide free software....
>
> > if debian is content to let users, sink, fine but state it on the web
> > page, and make it known. it's like you know I'm right but are to
> > ashamed to publish the fact that ... you don't care.
>
> Exactly the opposite. It's encouraging people to not learn about their
> computer that is "[letting them]...sink."
but you can't sit back and tell them "learn about your computer so that
you have enpouh knowlage to install linux" when the only os they have to
learn on hides EVERYTHING from them.
>
> > why can't we make linux, just a little easier to use, for the new users.
>
> I guess you could...what did you have in mind? Apt is underway, looks
> great, there's lots of GUI tools to choose from for any CLI task, XDM
> and you never have to even look at a shell prompt, right? My, would
> that suck!
apt isn't completed yet, when apt has replaced dselect ... then it will
be considered, a gui install option, would be good, and a better user
documentation for newbies is also a step in the right direction...
>
> > > But then MS wouldn't be able to sell as much software -- the human
> > > tendancy among many is to be lazy.
> >
> > well amoung this project, from what I've been told. yeah, humans are
> > lazy... for the most part. and most ppl are selfish uncaring beasts with
> > no right to claim the title human.
>
> Well the implication there reveals much about you. Tsk, tsk.
yeah probably.
>
> > you aperantly jumped into the middle of this with no clear understandinf
> > of what I'm talking about.
>
> Well I did jump into the middle of it, and replied just to that message.
> My apologies if I've misinterpreted you, but really I wasn't directing
> the message at you in particular, just joining the debate and
> contributing some input. If it appeared that I was attacking you
> personally then perhaps I misspoke, or you misinterpreted? Does it
> really matter?
no not realy, as I don't think I'll be able to change anyones mind
anyway... oh well, it would have been nice.
>
> > read the archives... I'm not for making debian another win95, but the
> > reason most ppl chose rh is that it has great newbie suport.... why
> > can't we... and when I say suport I mean that it's easy to install and
> > use the basic utilities of linux after installing....
>
> It isn't already? Each little bit of "easier" (divorce from UNIX
> paradigm) involved a geometric increase in the effort involved to bring
> it to that point. I think total immersion is the best way to go
> personally, and you would just be wasting time by screwing around trying
> to please everyone and make Joe Shitforbrains not have to think about
> what he's doing. Is Debian next going to have pretty pictures of
> multi-ethnic/gender families gathered around the computer screen, while
> being told how great the OS is, during the install? Yes this happens
> during Windows installation, believe it or not. I don't seriously mean
> to say that you think this way, it's just that I don't see what's
> especially hard about the installation process...it's actually quite
> nice I would say...and now Apt...mmm.
>
> Debian's "course" has inertia. Deviations require increasing amounts of
> energy.
>
> --
> Scott
>
>
> --
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- -Particle Man, by They Might Be Giants.
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