Re: RH and GNOME
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On 23 Jul 1998, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Hi,
> >>"Petra," == Petra, Kevin J Poorman <ewigin@SoftHome.net> writes:
>
> Petra,> we have to maintain a user base greater than 'us' (meaning
> Petra,> developers) in order to survive,
>
> And I think that user base has never been in jeapoardy,
> really. After all, IMHO, this is the best darned distribution out
> there. I think there are enough people out there who feel the same
> for us not to be running in fear of the sky falling.
you hold onto your POV, and I to mine
>
> Mind you, I am not saying we should prevent greater popularity
> of Debian (despite the temptation ;-), I am just saying that untoward
> doom and gloom is uncalled for.
>
> Petra,> and while the user base is NOW increasing, (from what I can
> Petra,> see) I also, see ppl, who converted to redhat, because of
> Petra,> problems, in a: versions of software that where to old, in
> Petra,> bo, b: install problems, c: problems with "Almost standard"
> Petra,> software like X.
>
> And I see no evidence that we are not working really haed to
> resolve bugs in the software. I fail to see what you wish to
> accomplish by this statement: if indeed we were ignoring hiccups in
> our distribution, you would have a point; right now, this comes close
> to mere complaining, and is not really constructive.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I realy do, because I am pointing out a
problem, but you see the problem isn't in software, it's in the attitude
and mindset of developers like you.
>
> Petra,> what we need to realise is that ppl now want everything given
> Petra,> to them on a gold plater, yesterday. ppl and that includes
> Petra,> managers and IS workers, don't want to take the time to read
> Petra,> docs, or configure things.
>
> I think I do not want to be busting my chops for such, pardon
> me, idiots. Any one who refuses to learn how to use their tools
> effectively is being short sighted. I have no problem in accepting
> that Windows 98 is the perfect OS for such people.
ah, yes, such a selfish attitude. I'm not saying we make EVERYTHING like
98, but a few things... like, installation, and manpages.
>
> Not every OS is meant for everyone.
NO aperantly debian, is only developed for those, who ALREADY know enouph
knowlage to use linux on it's own.
>
> Petra,> Somewhere there must be a middle ground between win 95 with
> Petra,> no user control, and us, with user configuration, of just
> Petra,> about everything. for debian, to survive, we must find that
> Petra,> middle ground.
>
> I think we are closer to achieving the sweet spot than you think.
please, do tell.
>
> Petra,> which is why we will will fade away unless we find that
> Petra,> middle ground. we must have a distribution, that is IS, and
> Petra,> corparate management useable, so that it will have a market
> Petra,> share at all, once corps. start useing it, it will spread on,
> Petra,> as joe can say, wow I can use this at home, because now I use
> Petra,> it at work as well....
>
> Try and fight MS on its own grounds, and you shall fail.
what the hell does this have to do with ms? once again, your miss reading
what I'm typing
>
>
> Petra,> Again, your mis reading what I'm trying to say. STOP
> Petra,> READ. Listen to what I am saying. a MIDDLE GROUND of caring
> Petra,> for our users, is possible without sacrificing our "moral" or
> Petra,> "ethical" standards for software.
>
> What the hell makes you think we do not care for our users?
what makes you think we do, I mean look at your attitude ... it seems to
me to be ... sink or swim .... How about ... Heres a life jacket to get
you through the first storm...
> We
> care. We care enough not to let their brains wither away with spoon
> feeding ;-)
Oh, yeah now theres a good idea....
> We are indeed striving for ease of use, and for a geater
> degree of assistance in configuration of complex software.
Examples? ... apt and?
>
> I think the problem is that the solutions we espouse are not
> close enough to windows for your liking.
>
> Petra,> Hell if we cared for our users, just a little more, I'd bet
> Petra,> my shirt, that we would quickly become the most popular
> Petra,> distribution, and then we wouldn't have to wine and bitch
> Petra,> when some lsb choses a standard, thats not ours... because
> Petra,> they would probably chose ours... get it...
>
>
> Actually, I think you have no idea of what you are talking
> about.
well, your entitled to that opinion.
> You are somewhat like the management, who pick up nice, big
> sounding ideas all the time, but really have not thought through the
> nitty gritty dirty details.
Oh, what a nice thought... a way out for you.... Come on. please try
harder.
>
>
> Petra,> "We (Debian) should put forth the effort to care for our
> Petra,> users, just a little bit more than we do.
>
> Really? How? By abandoning the users who do not run a GUI?
> Half of my machines do not run X.
did I say that? ... or did you make that up. I think you made that up,
because you assume that everyone who doesn't see it your way, must NEED
and WANT a gui. all I'm saying is that a life jacket would be good for our
users...
>
> By making it harder to adminster a system remotely? A text
> based system works under telnet. I refuse to abandone those users.
I NEVER SAID THAT I run a text based system X is on it for 2 reasons.
Netscape, and Gimp. thats it.
>
> Petra,> We should not, comprimise our software standards, for
> Petra,> "freeness". We should work to write a "Debian Standard
> Petra,> licence" that is basicly gpl, without the bugs.
>
> What bugs? I find the GPL to work exactly as it should. We
> need a strong license that ptomotes and actively propogates free
> software, and the GPL does that.
while I haven't memorised the entire gpl, what I have read leves me to
think that there are a few "bugs" in it.
>
> Petra,> We should try to mainstream Debian in any way we can, with
> Petra,> ad's, banners, logo's... etc. as this will help us grow in
> Petra,> the long run.
>
> Umm, ok. Pray do so, if this is a major goal of yours.
I'm working on it, in my "spare" time
>
> Petra,> We should put away the long held bias agianst X and other
> Petra,> Gui's and develop a Gui OPTION for an Instalation, (posibly
> Petra,> based on ggi, or maybe wxwindows (I think thats it's
> Petra,> name).
>
> Why do you think a X based system is better?
I don't. I said gui. wether thats X or mgr, or w or ggi. make no
differance.
> That would
> immediately abandon people who do not run X.
Can you not read english? ... I said OPTION FOR INSTALL. Ie: ppl would
have an OPTION of installing from a graphical user interface... something
like mgr (2 color gui, completly differnt from x) could run a install
program, then dissapeer...
> It would make
> adminstering a workstation harder. It would restrict what one can do
> to whatever the GUI programmer has provided buttons for.
I said OPTION, not 'force a user to use a ass backwards windowing system'
and Have you never heard of a X term?
>
>
> I think that would actually be a step back/
well, since you apperantly can't read english, I don't think you are
qualified to judje steps backward or forward.
>
> Petra,> We should improve the error hadleing of the debian
> Petra,> install program/script. Ie: fix it so errors are displayed in
> Petra,> a window, instead of the background... thereby helping you
> Petra,> read the message.
>
> Yup. error logging would be nice. Do you have a technical
> proposal? Which would save the error messages for later, and also
> work for people who do not run X?
Yup. for a gui install (mind you not limited to X) you can use root tail,
to tail the messages to the root window, and for a terminal install you
would use the same funtions of syslog that allow it to output data to a
empty tty. in both you would write all error messages, to both the screen
whre the install program is running and to a file /var/log/install.err
that file, would be tailed to a tty in a terminal install IE /dev/tty3 or
some sutch, and that same file would be tailed for the gui install by root
tail, ...
Hows that Enstien
>
> Petra,> We should develop a system of testing
>
> What do you think the testing and QA groups do? Please do your
> homework.
Not the kind of testing I'm talking about, a system of testing like mscne
ot mscse tests. I know about the testing and qa groups. I have done my
homework.
>
> Petra,> and a "Debian certification" so that debian power users, have
> Petra,> a leg to stand on when trying to pitch linux to companys. and
> Petra,> finaly we should all listen a little more, and type a little
> Petra,> less. (myself included).
>
> I personally am against the certification prtograms, since in
> my experience none of them so far have been worth anything
> much.
sounds like you couldn't pass one anyway.... well with your reading skills
and all.
> However, if some one can come up with something that rises
> above atamping mediocrity, go right ahead.
such a selfish and lazy attitude, why don't you help.
>
> Petra,> A modification to the gpl, written by a lawyer I know, would
> Petra,> cost us ~45$ us. to have a completly air tight (cough)
> Petra,> license that incorparates what we want without any of the
> Petra,> flaws, of the gpl, or artistic.
>
> I fail to find anything wrong with the BSD, Artistic, or the
> GNU public licenses. What flaws? rather than repeating your original
> statement, it would be edifying if you treated us to a view of what
> you percieve as a deficiency.
this whole kde stuff could be fixed with a simple clause to the gpl.
>
> manoj
>
> --
> Rid of craving and without clinging, an expert in the study of texts,
> and understanding the right sequence of the words, he may indeed be
> called "In his last body", "Great in wisdom" and a "Great man". 352
> Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@acm.org> <http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/>
> Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Particle man, Particle man
Doing the things a Particle can
Whats he like? Its not important
Particle man is he a dot, or is he a speck
When He's underwater does he get wet, or does the water get him instead?
- -Particle Man, by They Might Be Giants.
- -K
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