Re: Setting hostnames with hostnamectl on AWS AMIs, missing dbus?

Hello, this is my opinion on this matter.

No, I am a simple user, that lurks here on this list. And a Debian user past 17 years.

First, I do appreciate all work done on packages in Debian, even systemd.

But this I am going to write might hurt, but it looks like it is needed.

2017-02-17 20:27 GMT+01:00 Marco d'Itri <md@linux.it>:

On Feb 17, Adam Bolte <abolte@systemsaviour.com> wrote:

> If I understand correctly, you're saying it's okay for timedatectl to
> be broken in some installations if it's not expected to be used? If
Yes, sure. This is not highly unusual.

This is the attitude that got people banned from get their patches added to Linux by Linus Torvalds. Blaming other software about bugs users experience about the own software, and refusing to fix it. Is this the attitude by all systemd programmers, or is it just a few?

This is also the attitude that made me think systemd was a bad idea from the beginning, for Debian. Not so much the software itself, even though it has design faults, but the attitude that "it isn't our fault, it is up to the users that have the privilege to use our tremendous software to fix it on their side". It isn't doing any good for the reputation of systemd and the people around it anyways.

Software that is packed and installed in Debian should, and must, work. If not, it is a bug and the users can, and should, post a bug report about a fatal error. That can render the software removed from Debian, or the release delayed until fixed. It is up to those who pack the software to see to it that it works as expected for the users, not the other way around. So your groups "it is to much work to split it in another package" is not an acceptable option.

And if you don't believe me, read the Debian manifest about the obligations of the packers. Because your group, sir, are not following that.

The thing is that Debian is about stability and working software, which was why Ian made Debian in the first place. And this is a severe bug, that should be fixed. According to you and others, it isn't hard to fix, but take some time.

> that understanding is correct, I don't see how it could ever be
> anticipated by the installation tool what the installation will
> forever be used for.
This is why we have system administrators. It is not reasonable to
expect that the plain output of debootstrap is a general purpose system.

System administrators are users, your group are supposed to deliver a system that is usable for the users. Either disable the software until the user/administrator has configured the package (shorewall for one example), or use a default setting that are reasonable. A program that doesn't work is not an option. A program not installed when it can't perform, are a proper way to handle it.

Don't let the users down.

> I do believe the ideal solution is to package the command separately
Which I something that I have already explained was considered and
rejected long ago.

This is why I was against systemd as default in Debian, it breaks to much software. And is why Linus Torvalds went through the roof about systemd killing linux kernel.

> If the command doesn't exist, scripts should at least
> handle that case since many installations don't even have systemd. If
To a very good approximation all modern Debian systems use systemd:

https://qa.debian.org/popcon-graph.php?packages=systemd-sysv+upstart+openrc+sysvinit-core&show_installed=on&want_legend=on&want_ticks=on&from_date=2015-04-01&to_date=&hlght_date=&date_fmt=%25Y-%25m&beenhere=1

Again, there was a promise, no it was an insurance, when systemd was going to become default init system not to break for other init systems. It does now. It is your groups obligation to fix it.

Last, sorry if I step on some toes, but I hate to feel being forced to write this, as it shouldn't be needed in the first place. I have written what I feel needed to be written.

Now, fix this problem, please, because I know that it can be done and you all can do that, if you all collaborate.

Yours
Anders Jackson,
A Debian user since 17 years.