Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
Am Montag, 17. März 2008 16:18:09 schrieb Jürgen Kertz:
> Uwe Bugla schrieb:
> > Am Montag, 17. März 2008 12:29:44 schrieb Jürgen Kertz:
> >> Hello!
> >>
> >> First of all i have to admit i'm just a simple user, so i might have a
> >> very limited view of the problem.
> >
> > Hello Jürgen,
> >
> > your view is in fact very limited.
> > I will try to show you in how far and where......
> >
> >> Steve McIntyre schrieb:
> >>> [ Please note Reply-To: to debian-cd... ]
> >>>
> >>> Hi folks,
> >>>
> >>> It's time for me to ask the question again - what CDs and DVDs will we
> >>> find useful enough that we should make them for lenny? The reason I'm
> >>> asking is that we're looking at a *huge* number of discs, and it's not
> >>> clear that they'll all be useful. I've just finished building the full
> >>> set for lenny d-i beta 1 (hence why I've been so quiet the last few
> >>> days), and what we're looking at *now* is quite scary:
> >>>
> >>> 2 small CDs per arch (business card, netinst)
> >>> ~30 CDs per arch for a full CD set
> >>> ~4 DVDs per arch for a full DVD set
> >>> (total 353 CDs, 51 DVDs, 426 GB)
> >>>
> >>> Things are only going to get bigger: we're about to add armel to the
> >>> mix, and I'm expecting that we're going to grow further yet in terms
> >>> of the number and sizes of packages before we release lenny. That
> >>> leaves us with a huge amount of data for us to build and host, and for
> >>> our mirrors to handle too. So...
> >>>
> >>> 1. Is it worth making full sets of CDs at all? Can we rely on people
> >>> having a net connection or being able to use DVDs if they want
> >>> *everything*?
> >>
> >> I once installed "Sarge" from CD and it was a real pain, it takes you
> >> many many hours sitting in front of your machine and changing disks. As
> >> the number of CDs has increased since that time, i think it is not very
> >> practicable way installing a full blown Debian from CDs.
> >>
> >> Another point is, that one can assume that a machine not having a DVD
> >> drive will not be able to handle more than a very basic OS, but this is
> >> provided with the first few CDs.
> >
> > I think 4 or 5 DVDs (we are not far away from 5 DVDs as far as at least
> > the i386 architecture is concerned, are we?) per architecture plus a fast
> > Internet connection are first choice of course.
> >
> > But please never do forget that there are people in this world
> >
> > a. owing only slow Internet connections (like me for instance)
> > b. not running DVDs, i. e. running Debian on very old machines (just one
> > example: A Pentium 3 machine with 500 or 1000 MHz is fast enough for a
> > vast majority of average user's needs. However those machines do not owe
> > a DVD as standard equipment, because DVDs weren't standard equipment when
> > the first Pentium 3 machines were sold........ Permanent Internet
> > connections weren't either......
> >
> > Above that, as Karl said, the prices for bandwidth are not equal or
> > equivalent all around the world.......
> >
> >>> 2. Is it worth producing all the CDs/DVDs/whatever for all the
> >>> architectures?
> >>
> >> I would provide jigdos and maybe torrents for everything, but not the
> >> complete ISOs.
> >
> > I would provide almost everything. Reason: See above please: points a.
> > and b.!
> >
> > Why not shrink the maximum amount of CD-ISO's by:
> > a. changing the maximum size from 650 MB (650 MB blank CDs are out of
> > date and no more sold anymore, at least in Germany: How about the rest of
> > the world please???) to 700 MB?
> > b. changing the policy of what material is residing on which CD-ISO?
> >
> > That would reduce the maximum number of CDs to 28 currently.
> >
> > One thinkable compromise also would be to offer only a "minimum set" as
> > CD ISO. Regarding the contents of that minimum set you only need to take
> > a look at the contents of the first DVD: Everything necessary for the
> > majority of users is there.
> >
> > In so far this "minimum set" would amount to 7 or 8 CDs.
> > Now if you add the adequate amount of developer packages (to provide
> > implementing new tarballs into an existing "full blown" installation the
> > maximum amount of CDs would grow up to 14 or 16 CDs.
> >
> > I have never worked with Debian CDs, so I do not have any idea about the
> > exact time consommation going that path.
> > If perhaps the contents of the first 7 CDs would conform closer to the
> > contents of the first DVD the time consommation for the installation
> > could be reduced perhaps........ :)
> > But this is only a wild guess.....
> >
> >>> 3. For some arches, should we just provide the first couple of CDs
> >>> and a full set of DVDs? This is a bit of a compromise option - if
> >>> a given machine will not boot from DVD, but can boot from CD and
> >>> get the rest of its packages from a network share then all's good.
> >>
> >> I think offering only the first DVD as ISO will give everyone a nice
> >> start. A compareable set of CD ISOs for those who need CDs.
> >> From this point on everyone can get the packages from the mirrors or
> >> the images by jigdo or torrent.
> >> I think doing so for ALL archs will cut down the needed space (and
> >> traffic) a lot.
> >
> > Once again: The world does not consist of the so-called "1st world" alone
> > itself.
> > There is also a Far Eastern and Southern continent for instance which
> > should not be looked upon so arrogantly out of pure ignorance....... :(
> >
> >>> 4. ??? - what else would be a sane option?
> >>>
> >>> Suggestions/comments/complaints - please let us know what you'd
> >>> prefer.
> >
> > See above please..... :)
> >
> >> I think no user will have a problem getting the images by jigdo or
> >> torrent, or installing the rest from the mirrors. But of course a
> >> special set of tools must be included with the first DVD (or the set of
> >> CDs), so that jigdo and torrents can be handled even by new users -
> >> maybe installed together with the base system. I think of something
> >> like: klick on the .torrent link on the Debian site (or even on some
> >> kind of readme.html placed on the Desktop by default) and a torrent
> >> manager starts up. No special knowledge is necessary therefor.
> >
> > As long as you try to talk about other users needs you should read the
> > comment of Karl Goetz first which is excellent.......
> > You personally, the specific bandwidth and prices in Austria, plus all
> > the other conditions surrounding you aren't alone in this world, but just
> > a part of it....... :(
> >
> > So at least try to adjust your style and don't talk / think in those
> > absolute terms......... :(
> >
> > As soon as it goes to jigdo I would agree that a graphical tool would be
> > very helpful to simplify at least Jigdo.
> > It ain't no fun typing endless long lines into a console session in order
> > to start downloading a DVD or CD ISO image.
> > The basic problem is to avoid the copy and paste of an extremely long
> > path. The rest of the jigdo script is quite easy to understand and OK so
> > far..... :)
> >
> > "If someone has a slow and / or expensive or limited internet connection,
> > none of the discussed options will help you, no matter if the mentioned
> > 426 GB are offered or just a selected subset."
> >
> > From where do you know please?
> > Some people whose Internet connection is too slow or expensive can or
> > even must buy CD sets or DVD sets. But either those sets or the big
> > archives that jigdo and / or torrent take advantage of need to be hosted
> > somewhere. So that the one who burns them to a blank CD or DVD knows
> > where to download them.
> >
> > Me for instance: I visit friends with a fast Internet connection to
> > download the 4 DVDs of Lenny every 6 months.
> > In the meantime I do daily upgrades on Debian Sid with a very slow
> > Internet connection. That may be time consuming but that works for me.
> > The needed Debian Sid packages are being hosted locally for the other
> > machines on my local server.
> > A reduced "starter kit" would be very very painful for me because it
> > would force me to invest the at least double amount of money only for my
> > Internet connection.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Uwe
>
> Hello Uwe,
Hi Juergen, hi everybody reading that,
first of all it is positive that you spend your time looking for solutions
together with the other discussion partners.
Second, Juergen, if your point of view is being criticized, you should not
move back into your personal snail house. Instead you should try to improve
and learn.
Any other reaction is simply wrong and will not offer you any advantage.
Just one basic rule: If you think you do not know something exactly then
please ask instead of producing theses who aren't stable or consistent.
>
> First of all i want to apologize, I really did not want to offend
> anybody here. I did not intend to be aggessive or arrogant or ignorant.
> If I happened to be that way it was because of my lack of language,
> english is not my native language.
> Also i want to apologize especially to Mr. Karl Goetz, I really did not
> want to offend you.
>
> It may truely be that I got the inital question wrong: i understood that
> we are looking for a way to reduce global server load (storage and
> transfer) without losing "quality of service", so the idea I was hunting
> was "how" all the images are offered, not "if".
>
> I know that only few people have access to fast/any internet connection.
> In fact, I have access only since a few months, before that time i had
> to ask somebody at university if he let me download the images.
>
> My idea is: If you are downloading the images, it makes almost no
> difference if you do this by jigdo or ftp, there is a little bit more
> overhead for jigdo because of the .template files. But it makes a big
> difference for those who host the files. So i thought it would help to
> reduce the number of ISO images over ftp, not the number of images
> itself. All images would still be available as usual, but only the most
> important as ISO, and the rest by jigdo.
> Those who are lucky to have a way to download the images can do this as
> well by jigdo as by ftp.
>
There is one basic error / misunderstanding in this last paragraph:
1. It makes an enormous difference if you download an image using jigdo or
using ftp: Those two are worlds apart, at least technically:
a. If you use ftp (file transfer protocol) or even http (hypertext transfer
protocol) the image is being treated like one big portion.
If download is going on it can be interrupted by backbone troubles or fallouts
for instance: That means that you can restart the download once again and you
lose an enormous amount of time. That really sucks!
b. jigdo uses only a small amount of specialized dedicated servers for
download, not every server in this world available at the moment.
Moreover jigdo first writes a temporary image on your local hard disk, then
executes the wget command and copies file by file to your hard disk.
So if the download hangs for reason of force majeure (originally a french
expression directly imported into the English language meaning "höhere
Gewalt") you will not lose neither data nor time.
If you restart jigdo after an interruption out of force majeure it will
continue downloading at the point where the last jigdo download failed.
This last point makes the big difference and advantage.
So theoretically we can abolish hosting ISO images completely.
And here exactly is one weak point in my personal knowledge:
I do know that jigdo is a tool for distributed download of Debian package
files and local production of CD images and DVD images.
My question is:
To what does jigdo refer?
a. To published ISO images or
b. to one big Debian repository where it picks out single package files from?
My other question was:
Are blank CDs with 650 MB still sold or not?
In Germany they aren't. How about other countries in that world?
Perhaps someone reading that could answer me that question.
Would be very helpful to understand that!
>
> I fear I did nothing good with my comment here, and I hope all who felt
> offended by my words will forgive me. I've learned my lesson and will
> keep out of these discussions from now on.
Don't give up so quickly. Keep on asking questions, especially if you are new
to Debian.
But never generalize your personal needs, habits or usage profile /
expectation profile.
Try to think in terms of "backwards compatibility" and try to think more
global, even if it may be different sometimes.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jürgen
Best regards and cheers
Uwe
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