Am Montag, 17. März 2008 12:29:44 schrieb Jürgen Kertz:
Hello!
First of all i have to admit i'm just a simple user, so i might have a
very limited view of the problem.
Hello Jürgen,
your view is in fact very limited.
I will try to show you in how far and where......
Steve McIntyre schrieb:
[ Please note Reply-To: to debian-cd... ]
Hi folks,
It's time for me to ask the question again - what CDs and DVDs will we
find useful enough that we should make them for lenny? The reason I'm
asking is that we're looking at a *huge* number of discs, and it's not
clear that they'll all be useful. I've just finished building the full
set for lenny d-i beta 1 (hence why I've been so quiet the last few
days), and what we're looking at *now* is quite scary:
2 small CDs per arch (business card, netinst)
~30 CDs per arch for a full CD set
~4 DVDs per arch for a full DVD set
(total 353 CDs, 51 DVDs, 426 GB)
Things are only going to get bigger: we're about to add armel to the
mix, and I'm expecting that we're going to grow further yet in terms
of the number and sizes of packages before we release lenny. That
leaves us with a huge amount of data for us to build and host, and for
our mirrors to handle too. So...
1. Is it worth making full sets of CDs at all? Can we rely on people
having a net connection or being able to use DVDs if they want
*everything*?
I once installed "Sarge" from CD and it was a real pain, it takes you
many many hours sitting in front of your machine and changing disks. As
the number of CDs has increased since that time, i think it is not very
practicable way installing a full blown Debian from CDs.
Another point is, that one can assume that a machine not having a DVD
drive will not be able to handle more than a very basic OS, but this is
provided with the first few CDs.
I think 4 or 5 DVDs (we are not far away from 5 DVDs as far as at least the
i386 architecture is concerned, are we?) per architecture plus a fast
Internet connection are first choice of course.
But please never do forget that there are people in this world
a. owing only slow Internet connections (like me for instance)
b. not running DVDs, i. e. running Debian on very old machines (just one
example: A Pentium 3 machine with 500 or 1000 MHz is fast enough for a vast
majority of average user's needs. However those machines do not owe a DVD as
standard equipment, because DVDs weren't standard equipment when the first
Pentium 3 machines were sold........ Permanent Internet connections weren't
either......
Above that, as Karl said, the prices for bandwidth are not equal or equivalent
all around the world.......
2. Is it worth producing all the CDs/DVDs/whatever for all the
architectures?
I would provide jigdos and maybe torrents for everything, but not the
complete ISOs.
I would provide almost everything. Reason: See above please: points a. and b.!
Why not shrink the maximum amount of CD-ISO's by:
a. changing the maximum size from 650 MB (650 MB blank CDs are out of date and
no more sold anymore, at least in Germany: How about the rest of the world
please???) to 700 MB?
b. changing the policy of what material is residing on which CD-ISO?
That would reduce the maximum number of CDs to 28 currently.
One thinkable compromise also would be to offer only a "minimum set" as CD
ISO. Regarding the contents of that minimum set you only need to take a look
at the contents of the first DVD: Everything necessary for the majority of
users is there.
In so far this "minimum set" would amount to 7 or 8 CDs.
Now if you add the adequate amount of developer packages (to provide
implementing new tarballs into an existing "full blown" installation the
maximum amount of CDs would grow up to 14 or 16 CDs.
I have never worked with Debian CDs, so I do not have any idea about the exact
time consommation going that path.
If perhaps the contents of the first 7 CDs would conform closer to the
contents of the first DVD the time consommation for the installation could be
reduced perhaps........ :)
But this is only a wild guess.....
3. For some arches, should we just provide the first couple of CDs
and a full set of DVDs? This is a bit of a compromise option - if
a given machine will not boot from DVD, but can boot from CD and
get the rest of its packages from a network share then all's good.
I think offering only the first DVD as ISO will give everyone a nice
start. A compareable set of CD ISOs for those who need CDs.
From this point on everyone can get the packages from the mirrors or
the images by jigdo or torrent.
I think doing so for ALL archs will cut down the needed space (and
traffic) a lot.
Once again: The world does not consist of the so-called "1st world" alone
itself.
There is also a Far Eastern and Southern continent for instance which should
not be looked upon so arrogantly out of pure ignorance....... :(
4. ??? - what else would be a sane option?
Suggestions/comments/complaints - please let us know what you'd
prefer.
See above please..... :)
I think no user will have a problem getting the images by jigdo or
torrent, or installing the rest from the mirrors. But of course a
special set of tools must be included with the first DVD (or the set of
CDs), so that jigdo and torrents can be handled even by new users -
maybe installed together with the base system. I think of something
like: klick on the .torrent link on the Debian site (or even on some
kind of readme.html placed on the Desktop by default) and a torrent
manager starts up. No special knowledge is necessary therefor.
As long as you try to talk about other users needs you should read the comment
of Karl Goetz first which is excellent.......
You personally, the specific bandwidth and prices in Austria, plus all the
other conditions surrounding you aren't alone in this world, but just a part
of it....... :(
So at least try to adjust your style and don't talk / think in those absolute
terms......... :(
As soon as it goes to jigdo I would agree that a graphical tool would be very
helpful to simplify at least Jigdo.
It ain't no fun typing endless long lines into a console session in order to
start downloading a DVD or CD ISO image.
The basic problem is to avoid the copy and paste of an extremely long path.
The rest of the jigdo script is quite easy to understand and OK so far..... :)
"If someone has a slow and / or expensive or limited internet connection,
none of the discussed options will help you, no matter if the mentioned
426 GB are offered or just a selected subset."
From where do you know please?
Some people whose Internet connection is too slow or expensive can or even
must buy CD sets or DVD sets. But either those sets or the big archives that
jigdo and / or torrent take advantage of need to be hosted somewhere. So that
the one who burns them to a blank CD or DVD knows where to download them.
Me for instance: I visit friends with a fast Internet connection to download
the 4 DVDs of Lenny every 6 months.
In the meantime I do daily upgrades on Debian Sid with a very slow Internet
connection. That may be time consuming but that works for me.
The needed Debian Sid packages are being hosted locally for the other machines
on my local server.
A reduced "starter kit" would be very very painful for me because it would
force me to invest the at least double amount of money only for my Internet
connection.
Regards
Uwe