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Re: Old-timer installer, task-sysvinit?

On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 11:37:41PM +0100, Holger Levsen wrote:
> Debian has agreed via the tech-ctte and via the recent GR that installing 
> systemd by default on new installations *is* the *right thing*.
> And jessie is frozen. Since ages ;-)

A few weeks is hardly ages in the Debian release cycle timeframe.

> Please accept that. 
> That said, useful patches for the release-notes and the installation-guide are 
> still welcome I suppose - though I (personally) don't consider patches adding 
> documentation for legacy init systems (with known deficencies for decades) to 
> be very useful for future minded people. But I don't maintain said 
> documentation.

They certainly have issues, but so does systemd and at least for some
people the problems are by design, so this argument isn't going to
go away.  Clearly there are people that want to be able to avoid systemd,
and currently it is very hard to figure out how to do that.

The fact the old init systems have flaws is not the question.  The
tech-ctte and GR have not said systemd is the only supported thing, so
in that case, do tell the users that for some reason don't want systemd
how to avoid it.  So far preseed has been mentioned, although without
any details on exactly what would be needed.  Clearly someone must know
given claims are made about it being doable.

> I would imagine patches documenting how to properly use systemd and make use 
> of its features and benefits are more a.) welcomed, b.) useful (for total 
> newbies and old farts alike) and c.) better use of time. YMMV. Also, 
> wiki.debian.org/systemd should have all the info (including how to avoid it in 
> Jessie.)

That wiki page is useless.  It only tells you have to start using systemd,
not how to get rid of it.  I have read it multiple times today while
reading the emails in this thread.  Seems everything says to go there
for info, except there is none to be found there.

Systemd certainly does have some nice features, but I also understand
why some people want nothing to do with it, and the information on how
to avoid it is terrible at the moment.  That is highly disappointing.
I would update the wiki if I could figure out what to put there, but so
far I haven't had any luck with that.

> So I do think this is out of scope for discussion on this list right now.
> (If you have code patches for stretch (=jessie+1), submit them to the bts and 
> start a discussion after the release.)

That's years away.  That is ages on the other hand.  I honestly suspect
by then the hurd and bsd ports will be dead and a lot of people will
have moved elsewhere.  Of course the lack of anywhere obviously better
to move on to makes that difficult.

Personally I don't care about BSD or hurd, but clearly some people do.

Len Sorensen

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