On Saturday 26 February 2005 10:00 pm, David Pastern wrote:
> On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 13:05 +1100, Mr Mike wrote:
> > I went back and read the whole thread again and determined I must have
> > missed the one where he did respond with more information... Given that
> > new perspective, I hereby issue a full and complete apology for being a
> > rude and crude dumbass.
>
> I think I missed the post with the extra information myself to be
> honest, no matter, he hasn't reposted, so he's either running and hiding
> or thinking about things.
>
> > With that said, I must admit that imho users switching to linux take on
> > an obligation to RTFM and man <apps>, read help files, and lets not
> > forget Google <this problem>... before bringing problems to support
> > groups like this... The message I learned early in my linux life was
> > linux users will always help other linux users so long as they have tried
> > to help themsleves first...
>
> This is where I fundamentally agree and disagree. Disagreeing thoughts
> first - I don't think that there's any obligation to RTFM or man pages,
> help ages or spend ages googling for answers.
Seems we are both pretty much on the same page except for maybe this one
issue. In my mind anyone that willingly commits to something new also
commits themselves to responsible behaviors associated with it. A very
simple example would be the purchase of a new car. My guess is 'everyone',
even you, more or less 'expects' new car buyers to read the owners manual
that comes with it in the glove box. There's no hard and fast rule
'requiring' it, yet it is generally expected.
So, I kind of apply this same attitude to linux. If anyone willingly decides
to switch to (or try it out), they must also be aware of the fact that there
will be a learning curve associated with it just like the OS they are leaving
behind. It's sorta their responsability to find that 'owners manual in the
glovebox' no matter what it is. (man, info, google, gui help button..)
> Not everyone is
> technically inclined, and you could (and possibly rightly) ask why the
> hell are they using Linux? Knowledge is priceless, and teaching others
> is also priceless.
Your right. Some of us want to learn more than others and are willing to take
more risks etc. But you can't just ignore the manual in the glovebox if you
know it's there. New users may not even know about the man or info pages.
Even if they do, to many newbies, they are just a lot of programming mumbo
jumbo and it takes quite a while before they start making any sense. (That
was my personal experience with them) Depending on their level of experience
and desires, RTFM could just mean a healthy google search (that doesn't have
to mean 2 days of looking).
I really feel expecting newbies to research their own problems is benefitting
them much more than just spiting out solutions. Tracking down the solution
and resolving a problem on your own is SO empowering. That's why I encourage
it over using the 'quick fix' chat channel or news groups. There will always
be times when you will have to ask for help but at least try to help yourself
first. For me, asking for help is almost always my last resort.
> The more users that use Linux, the better the
> products will be, and the more software will end up being ported to
> Linux (and hardware drivers as well I might add). If you turn one
> single person off, you can introduce the butterfly effect - where in
> turn he/she will stop using Linux, go back to Windows, badmouth Linux to
> friends, family etc. It's counterproductive imho.
>
I'm not completely sure I agree that more linux users = better products but
that is definitely an integral part of the formula to making linux more main
stream. On the other hand, I agree 100% that more users should put more
pressure on device manufacturers to provide linux drivers...
When/if I'm presented with the option of telling someone to RTFM or whatever,
I usually try (depending on the circumstances) to do it as gently as possible
to avoid creating that 'bad linux experience' that could lead to the
butterfly effect you mention... I know I personally hated to hear that in
the early days...
> Now, onto the agreeing thoughts - it is nice to have some provide some
> basic information, and to have tried to solve it themselves to the best
> of their ability. If someone has tried, no matter how effectively or
> unneffectively, that's good enough for me. The thing is that they
> tried. The problem that I see, is that some people are inherently:
>
> 1. non technical
>
> 2. lazy and do not wish to troubleshoot their own problems
>
My patients aren't very good with the 2's but like you say, some folks are
just baffled by anything as technical as a pencil sharpener let alone a
powerful multi-user/tasking OS like linux... They deserve all the help they
can get.. <g>
> Like it or not, Linux is becoming more and more mainstream, with more
> and more 'ordinary' users starting to switch. And that means more will
> consider trying Debian, despite it being supposedly a "hard distro to
> use". This can be only good for Linux.
and debian too.. With the new adaptation of the anaconda installer from RH, a
very big roadblock to using debian has been removed. Now it needs to provide
a more unified gui administration toolset like mandrake then there should be
no reason why anyone couldn't/wouldn't want to give it a serious look..
>
> Windows is supposedly a easier system to learn and use, as is Mac OS X,
> but people still ask questions there (and most do little research prior
> to asking). Neither the Windows or OS X camps seem to have the
> hostility of the RTFM response that Linux and BSD users do. Are we that
> technically elite that we cannot see when others aren't technically
> inclined, but wish to use a product that is technically superior due to
> other reasons (reliability, security, choice, moral grounds etc).
>
I think the more convets we get from the other OS's the more this attitude of
superiority will melt away. Old-timers retiring and moving on to other
projects is also helping out. I can remember a few years ago when this topic
would ignight a full fledged flame war. Now it's a legitimate source of
concern and open debate. Yet Another good thing for linux.
> > This guy I've been friends with the longest here in Houston got into
> > linux full time just about the same time I did. To this day he still
> > can't/won't use the cli, edit a config file or look at a man page. I
> > finally told him to either start learning at least some 'basic' linux or
> > stop asking me for help. He hasn't asked for any help since then and I
> > haven't asked if he is having any problems. If we talk about linux at
> > all, it's always very light and more about when/if/how/etc linux will or
> > won't fair in the desktop world of general PC users. When/if he finally
> > decides to jump out of KDE to a terminal window and start learning a
> > little linux I'll gladly start helping again...
>
> For some, they will refuse to use the command line interface. Pity,
> because it's very powerful, much more efficient than the GUI. Still,
> those brought up in a Windows world will generally avoid the command
> line out of lack of education and fear.
He actually wrote more complex DOS batch files than I ever did. He used to
really enjoy getting into his hands dirty..
> Your friend needs a gentle
> introduction to very basic stuff in the CLI, so that he doesn't feel
> overwhelmed, and thus gains confidence. Over time he will do more
> complex things from the CLI and become even more and more confident.
Actually, no... he is NOT going to learn any 'linux' commands when he has a
'perfectly good gui' to do all his work for him. Honestly... that's his
attitude... and If he finds something he CAN'T do from within KDE he gets
pissed because ' Linux should be able to do it..' Maybe you should add a
third category to your list of typical users..
1) tech inept 2) lazy, and 3) stubborn obnoxious x-window$ users <g>
> I'd buy him a book (if one exists) that isn't overtly technical, and
> gently introduces the command line.
I've given him several old books that I didn't need anymore that provided some
really good cli stuff. He hasn't even opened any of them that i know of..
He can't go to cli and use dmesg or du or df or top or list a text file with
cat, less, more, tac... Ask him to find syslog file and he would have a s..t
fit. It's REALLY pathetic.. It's so bad he doesn't even know clear or the
ls command, he uses dir when or if he is EVER in a shell... (old habits are
hard to break)
>
> As to Linux - it's already ready for the desktop, and it can only get
> better. I think within the next 5 years Linux will be easily as good as
> OS X and Windows in every area. 5 years is a long time, look at how far
> the kernel has went.
(I do everything I need to do from the linux desktop but..)
I used to think so too but now I have identified two major things that MUST be
done before the Desktop can really be considered a true threat to the other
major OS's.. (imho)
1) Application setup/option pages must be made more user friendly.
example: K3B is my CD burning app of choice but the setup page
presents you with a list of commands and expects you to
be able to modify the switches to do what you want or
to resolve problems. The only way to do that would be
to visit the MAN pages and try to figure out which of
the ## switches you want/need. This is NOT going
to win the hearts and minds or convert ANY MS or
OSX user that wants/expects/needs/requires simplicity.
How is that inherently tech. inept user you mentioned
earlier going to react to this, especially if his CDRW
needs a 'special' cdrecord -switch to make it work?
2) Linux application categories need a complete revamping to break out
and definitively identify a GUI Application Category with nothing but
X Windows capable apps. I still find it extremely annoying when
I'm looking for, say, a GUI backup tool like Kdar and have to look at
page after page of things like tar, cpio, dar, whatever that are
excellent cli backup tools but NOT what I'm looking for. This would
also be a good PR tool... The way it is now, the Linux community
touts thousand and thousands of applications when in reality, the
list of applications that would be of interest to 'desktop' users is
only a small portion of those. The rest are programming tools, cli
utilities, header and include files, and you know the drill. I teach
a linux class to potential new linux users and of those that have
tried it in the past mention this a lot. They feel linux, in it's
attempt to win converts, mislead them into thinking 'all those aps'
were available for the desktop user. This really needs to be addressed
before the linux desktop can come to really compete with the others.
note: Yikes.. I know... there are a lot of other things too like pkg
management, dependencies, file access rights, internal and USB modems, and a
lot more. Apt does a lot to ease SW installs much more so than most of the
RPM based tools I've used. The other issues tend to resolve themselves
pretty quick with general computer use or potential relatively inexpensive HW
replacements... I know I replaced my internal modem with a serial modem I
got on eBay for 20.00 and I'm completely satisfied... Would I like that
little bit of desk space that the modem is using back again? Yes. But the
problems and issues it solved make the trade off VERY much worth while.. :-)
btw: Is anyone every going to write a Dreamweaver for Linux? That might come
in REAL handy too. I really hate hand coding html and Screem, bluebish,
quanta etc. just don't seem to make it that much easier..
>
> In the end, a simple, "can you provide more information please" (with a
> simple prod in the right direction sometimes) is all that's needed. And
> remember, not everyone knows what to actually research to troubleshoot
> their problem.
Yes, your right..
Anyway... This turned into quite a stimulating conversation... Thanks for
putting up with my sometimes obnoxious sounding attitude... I'm not really
that way, it just kinda comes across like that sometimes...
>
> > Again, let me say I'm sorry if I ruffled any feathers...
> >
> > --
> > Cheers: Mike
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>
> Proud Libranet GNU/Linux user
> Libranet The TOP Libranet distribution
> http://www.libranet.com/
> Download your free trial of Libranet 2.8.1 today!
--
Cheers: Mike
.. Now, a little humor compliments of Linux Fortune...
Chihuahuas drive me crazy. I can't stand anything that shivers when it's
warm.
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