Re: larry

[David Pastern <david@scsenterprises.com.au>]

On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 13:05 +1100, Mr Mike wrote:

> I went back and read the whole thread again and determined I must have missed 
> the one where he did respond with more information...  Given that new 
> perspective, I hereby issue a full and complete apology for being a rude and 
> crude dumbass.

I think I missed the post with the extra information myself to be
honest, no matter, he hasn't reposted, so he's either running and hiding
or thinking about things.  

> With that said, I must admit that imho users switching to linux take on an 
> obligation to RTFM and man <apps>, read help files, and lets not forget 
> Google <this problem>...  before bringing problems to support groups like 
> this...  The message I learned early in my linux life was linux users will 
> always help other linux users so long as they have tried to help themsleves 
> first...  

This is where I fundamentally agree and disagree.  Disagreeing thoughts
first - I don't think that there's any obligation to RTFM or man pages,
help ages or spend ages googling for answers.  Not everyone is
technically inclined, and you could (and possibly rightly) ask why the
hell are they using Linux?  Knowledge is priceless, and teaching others
is also priceless.  The more users that use Linux, the better the
products will be, and the more software will end up being ported to
Linux (and hardware drivers as well I might add).  If you turn one
single person off, you can introduce the butterfly effect - where in
turn he/she will stop using Linux, go back to Windows, badmouth Linux to
friends, family etc.  It's counterproductive imho.  

Now, onto the agreeing thoughts - it is nice to have some provide some
basic information, and to have tried to solve it themselves to the best
of their ability.  If someone has tried, no matter how effectively or
unneffectively, that's good enough for me.  The thing is that they
tried.  The problem that I see, is that some people are inherently:

1.  non technical

2.  lazy and do not wish to troubleshoot their own problems

Like it or not, Linux is becoming more and more mainstream, with more
and more 'ordinary' users starting to switch.  And that means more will
consider trying Debian, despite it being supposedly a "hard distro to
use".  This can be only good for Linux.  

Windows is supposedly a easier system to learn and use, as is Mac OS X,
but people still ask questions there (and most do little research prior
to asking).  Neither the Windows or OS X camps seem to have the
hostility of the RTFM response that Linux and BSD users do.  Are we that
technically elite that we cannot see when others aren't technically
inclined, but wish to use a product that is technically superior due to
other reasons (reliability, security, choice, moral grounds etc).  



> This guy I've been friends with the longest here in Houston got into linux 
> full time just about the same time I did.  To this day he still can't/won't 
> use the cli, edit a config file or look at a man page.  I finally told him to 
> either start learning at least some 'basic' linux or stop asking me for help.  
> He hasn't asked for any help since then and I haven't asked if he is having 
> any problems.  If we talk about linux at all, it's always very light and more 
> about when/if/how/etc linux will or won't fair in the desktop world of 
> general PC users.  When/if he finally decides to jump out of KDE to a 
> terminal window and start learning a little linux I'll gladly start helping 
> again...

For some, they will refuse to use the command line interface.  Pity,
because it's very powerful, much more efficient than the GUI.  Still,
those brought up in a Windows world will generally avoid the command
line out of lack of education and fear.  Your friend needs a gentle
introduction to very basic stuff in the CLI, so that he doesn't feel
overwhelmed, and thus gains confidence.  Over time he will do more
complex things from the CLI and become even more and more confident.
I'd buy him a book (if one exists) that isn't overtly technical, and
gently introduces the command line.  

As to Linux - it's already ready for the desktop, and it can only get
better.  I think within the next 5 years Linux will be easily as good as
OS X and Windows in every area.  5 years is a long time, look at how far
the kernel has went.  

In the end, a simple, "can you provide more information please" (with a
simple prod in the right direction sometimes) is all that's needed.  And
remember, not everyone knows what to actually research to troubleshoot
their problem.  

> Again, let me say I'm sorry if I ruffled any feathers...  
> 
> -- 
> Cheers: Mike

Cheers,

Dave

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