Re: apt and java
||||How much does making 'good java programs' run on free runtimes
'cost' Debian
users? ;)
Now, that depends on the maturity of free runtimes.
both in terms of stability (which I don't know anything about yet), and
in terms of level of compatibility to sun's jvm's provided API's.
I fail to see a proof of the 'it costs debian users' assertion you made in
this response.
Quite simple:
1. Eclipse - not in main, contrib, or non-free.
2. Tomcat - in contrib only.
3. Azareus - not in main, contrib, or non-free.
these are just some of the very popular free java programs, which are
not available by default (or at all) from apt to debian users.
Its not about me.
its about all those poor souls out there, looking to install their
favorites free java programs, only to find that there is no trace of
them anywhere in apt.
Then please help those poor souls that you care about by testing free
software written in java with the free runtimes and giving a hand to the
developers & packagers of the respective software, for example by telling
the packagers that some software now works with Kaffe, sablevm, gij,
IKVM or JamVM. Or that it doesn't.
I might do that, but it will not fix whats needed to be fixed now.
an analogy:
A man is choking because of asthma.
if he does not get treatment now, he dies.
the cause to the asthma is air pollution.
fixing the air pollution is importent, but it will not save that man.
thats the different between urgent and importent.
supporting existing java applications is urgent
promoting free java runtimes is importent.
It's that easy to reach what you want. I recommend checking out
http://java.debian.net/index.php/MovingJavaToMain and helping to get things
moving faster.
I have, and will visit it in the future.
this is importent, but urgent is urgent.
I will find a way to run what I want, but for most users, who are
spoiled by the excellence of the apt system, it will be too hard.
When a package is in main, it's the usual apt-get excellence. I don't see a
problem there.
The problem is that *today*, not enough java programs are in main.
So let me state again what I am after:
To provide users with the ability to install most java programs
seamlessly, today.
Good, me too. :)
not when the programs have been modified (if needed) to work with the
free runtimes, or when the free runtimes are ready for them.
As Debian can't legally & safely distribute Sun's (or any other
sun-derived) VM, that's not possible, afaict. If you don't like that,
you can try to get Sun to fix their broken licenses. Good luck, though
I think it's a major waste of effort :)
I have emailed sun today, quering if they approve an automatic installer
which will get the bin from their site, and execute it - showing the
user the license as it does that, and installing if the user approved.
I described to them that the user can choose to install jdk/jre alone,
or it might be triggered when he wishes to install a java application.
lets see what they say.
I want to achieve it in a way which still pushes the free runtimes
forward, and does not make them obsolete.
That would not make them obsolete. They are simply playing in a different
league from Sun: they are free, unencumbered software. Just like
Solaris 10 doesn't make Debian obsolete. :)
It will not make the obselete, but - if done incorrectly, might hurt the
motivation of developers pushing these free runtimes.
and of course, I want to achieve it in a way which is legal (from sun's
point of view), and that is compatible with the Debian spirit.
People have been looking at various Sun's (and other proprietary VM
vendor's) licenses for 7 years now, and there was no way to do what you
want in the context of Debian. The licenses are filled with hillarious,
contradictory claims, and are legally amibiguous, to say the least. So
Debian is not going to get into the risk of distibuting such dubiously
licensed code.
You know, I am not sure sure writing a program which downloads the bin
from their site and installing it can be categorized as distributing it.
its them who distribute it, and its them who are paying for the
bandwidth and storage.
And it's definitely not in the 'Debian spirit' to force
or even encourage people to use dubiously licensed code, so your effort,
though no doubt well-meant, is beating on the wrong bush. There is nothing
Debian can do to support Sun, because Sun *does not want* to be supported
by a volunteer project like debian according to their license terms.
That ball is in Sun's park.
Look, its not a game between equals, so the ball is not at sun's park,
there is no ball.
You can either chose to continue beating the dead horse, or do something
about it. If you chose the latter, you can either go and tell Sun to do
what you want them to do, or you can help to make that sort of questions
irrelevant by improving the support for and from free runtimes. People
who have done the latter, have made some great progress on getting Java
programs into Debian's main distribution. You, too, can be a part of
the team working on the solution, rather than spending your time on
something that you can not influence (Sun's licensing policy).
Let me get back to my analogy from before:
You can either give the man some steroids, and save him, or you can go
out there, but a environmental friendly car, and join Greenpeace!
Well, I might joing GreenPeace, but its does not dismiss the need for an
urgent thing to be done.
Omry.
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