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Re: "Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post"

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 01:06:42PM +0100, Peter Tuhársky wrote:
> I'm not impressed. I know enough women that understood the difference  
> between men and women, and happily let their husbands to fix things,  
> install new devices into houshold and so on, instead of attempting to do  
> it themselve. They all got there by their own experience, not by outside  
> pressure. Generally, men are more into technology, although there are  
> always exceptions in both sides. And You'd be surprised, I also change  
> nappies if necessarry.

It's a bit short to say "men are more in tech", without trying to search
why that is. It's a just a way to say that "naturally" men and women are
done for certain jobs. Men (or women) saying such things often are because
they didn't read anything on the subject nor spend some time thinking
about it (why should they, in their dominant position?) and just repeat

There are books and studies explaining how childs are educated, how
parents behave differently with them depending on their gender. In this
christmas time, you should have a look to the toys part every single shop:
you'll see a blue part for boys and a pink one for girls (see how you can
create a feeling of difference to the childs just that way) . Now have a
closer look to the differents toys accessible for each and tell us: how
many toys offered to girls are tech related, have big manuals to read,
etc. Now take a look to the boy part of the shop, and count them. Having
access as a child to such things (rather than cook toys, or wash toys and
the like) help a lot when you grow to handle tech stuffs, cause you
learned by playing as a child, cause your parents encouraged you this way
with their gifts and talks. This is just an examples of all the
mechanisms that participate in this men/women division that is *not*
natural, but just a social construction. How many of the women you know
and you're talking about did at one moment have a "boy" behaving and what
was the reaction of her parents? Usually, when a girl behave like a boy on
some of her activities, her neighborhood just pressure her to stop. Same
for the boys... It's sometime just a matter of trying to cross the line
once and realize what reaction are taking place and why.

So please, stop saying stuffs like that (men and women, naturally, bla
bla...) without thinking and reading a bit before on the subject.

I'm myself a man like you but my brain, every part of my body (like my sex
too) is completely different from yours. I'm still able to do tech stuff.
Why should one so called "woman" won't be able to do tech stuff too, just
because her sex look a bit differently from yours? And don't talk here
about this studies demonstrating a woman's brain is different from a man's
brain. As I said our brains as men are differents too, and the way a brain
construct itself in growing is more related to language and education than
everything else.

I'm supporting debian-women in this situation, you're doing a great job,
and I hope those fools won't disturb you too much.


> That said, I won't oppose women to choose a job they like, however if  
> this goes into extremes, such as woman WILLINGLY fighting for the right  
> for digging into mine, then the only answer to such insanity is to  
> expect equal work results from her. There is no sanctuary in positive  
> discrimination, because that usually means negative discrimination of  
> others.
> I would like the society to be more polite to the pregnant and nursing  
> women especially, however, won't take the cheap feminist self-excuses  
> either. The workplace and social legislative is screwed at all (at least  
> here where I live), not only for women.
> Peter
> Miriam Ruiz  wrote / napísal(a):
>> 2008/12/29 Peter Tuhársky <tuharsky@misbb.sk>:
>>> For me, the answer is quite simple. The computing is almost technical
>>> industry, and therefore it is naturally more suitable for men, who are
>>> naturally strog in technical thinking and achieving the task milestones.
>>> Just like there are much more women in people-contact positions, because
>>> women are naturally better equipped for social contact, empathy,
>>> caregiving... Althought I think it is time now, that much of technical
>>> issues are being solved or solved already, and there is need to make the
>>> computing experienca "more human".
>> I'm Copying and Pasting an answer (translated into English) to that
>> mysterious questions that someone published in Barrapunto [1] some
>> time ago, in a satirical way, but very accurate in my oppinion:
>> How funny, when I read this I thought that maybe women are better
>> suited for humanities than for science and computation. Nevertheless
>> it seems that there are less women interested in literature, have a
>> look at the members of Real Academia de la Lengua [2], for example. I
>> can hardly see any woman. Then I thought that maybe women are not
>> interested in studying, but in fact we have a higher level than men in
>> studies, there are more women at university, studying languages,
>> etc.... What a mystery!
>> Maybe it's that we have mor affinity for business, but it seems that
>> there are less business women than men, or dedicated to business
>> administration, and that the great majority of senior executives and
>> CEOs are men.
>> I've also seen at INE (Spanish Statistics Institute) that it usually
>> takes more time for women to find a job (unless it is related to
>> cleaning houses or taking care of children and elders, or the company
>> is receiving some subsidy for hiring them). The conclusions are clear:
>> women are not interested in anything, and that's why they put no
>> effort in working or finding a job.
>> Maybe you're right, and women are interested in investing their time
>> in something else for fun, but in what? WTF are women in this country
>> interested in?
>> It is without a doubt a mysterious question, but after thinking deeply
>> about it and looking for more information, I now know what's
>> happening!
>> Women like to invest their time in having children and being at home
>> taking care of them. That is definitely certain and provable because
>> statistics show it clearly (you only have to look at them carefully):
>> 100% of children are given birth by women, and 0% from men. 95% of the
>> unemployed due to taking care of their homes are women, and the free
>> time that working women have (including those working as software
>> developers) is invested in that too. That would also explain why there
>> are so few women developing Free Software. They prefer to be taking
>> care of house chores, changing nappies and feeding babies in their
>> free time!
>> Well, it must also be added that we live in a country full of
>> misogynists, there are still old-minded people that with their last
>> century minds do whatever they can to avoid women to be integrated in
>> certain working environments, gender discrimination (as much as some
>> people want to deny it and don't want to see it) is everywhere all
>> around us.
>> Well, I'm sorry to open your eyes to this hard reality, but with the
>> great mistery solved I'm pretty sure everyone can rest more relaxed.
>> Greetings!
>> Original message in Spanish:
>> Qué raro, al leer esto pensé que igual las mujeres tenemos mejores
>> dotes para las letras que para las ciencias y la programación. Sin
>> embargo parece que también hay menor frecuencia de mujeres interesadas
>> en el tema de la literatura, vease los miembros de la Real Academia de
>> la Lengua: [2] Yo casi no veo mujeres.
>> Entonces pensé que a las mujeres no les gusta estudiar, sin embargo
>> tienen un nivel de estudios superior al de los hombres, hay mas
>> mujeres en la universidad, en las escuelas de idiomas... que misterio.
>> Quizás sea que deben de tener más afinidad por los negocios, pero
>> resulta que también hay menos mujeres empresarias que hombres, o que
>> se dediquen a la dirección de empresas, y la gran mayoría de los altos
>> ejecutivos son hombres.
>> También he visto en el INE que las mujeres tardan mucho más en
>> encontrar trabajo (a menos que el trabajo sea de limpiar casas o
>> cuidar niños y mayores, o la empresa en cuestión reciba alguna clase
>> de subvencion por contratarlas, en estos casos las mujeres encuentran
>> trabajo mucho antes que los hombres).
>> La conclusión es clara: las mujeres no están interesadas en ningún
>> tema y por eso no ponen empeño ni en trabajar ni en buscar trabajo.
>> Probalemente tengas razón y a las mujeres les interese dedicar el
>> tiempo a otra cosa por gusto, pero a qué?? ¿¿Qué diantres les gusta a
>> las mujeres en este país??...
>> Sin duda esta es una misteriosa cuestión, pero tras informarme y
>> meditarlo... Ya se lo que pasa!
>> A las mujeres les gusta dedicar su tiempo a tener hijos y cuidarlos en
>> su casa. Esto es seguro y demostrable ya que las estadísticas lo
>> revelan claramente (solo hay que fijarse): el 100% de los niños nacen
>> de mujeres, y el 0% de hombres. El 95% de los inocupados por labores
>> de hogar son mujeres, y el tiempo libre que tienen las mujeres
>> ocupadas (incluyendo a las que trabajan como programadoras) se va en
>> más de lo mismo. Esto explicaría también porqué tan poquitas mujeres
>> programen software libre. Prefieren hacer sus labores, cambiar pañales
>> y dar papillas en su tiempo libre!!!
>> Bueno, también faltaría añadir que vivimos en un país con un gran
>> número de misóginos, todavía quedan retrógrados que con su mentalidad
>> de hace un siglo hacen todo lo posible para evitar la incorporación de
>> la mujer en ciertos ambientes laborales, la discriminación de género
>> (por mucho que lo neguemos y no queramos verlo) aparece y se ejerce
>> activamente cada día a nuestro alrededor...
>> En fin, que lamento abriros los ojos a esta cruda realidad, pero ya
>> con el gran misterio desvelado, seguro que todos podréis descansar más
>> tranquilos.
>> Un saludo!
>> [1] http://barrapunto.com/comments.pl?sid=78917&cid=1097978
>> [2] http://www.rae.es/rae/gestores/gespub000001.nsf/voTodosporId/A9C3B614985EADD8C1257136007078F7?OpenDocument
>> Greetings,
>> Miry
>> PS: I've removed d-devel from the target mailing lists, please keep it that way.
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