Re: Debian, lists and discrimination
I've tried here to answer your questions clearly, at least those which
haven't been already answered elsewhere. If you wish to discuss this
further, I suggest you reply to me off the list, because I doubt that
many other people are interested in arguing further about stuff that is
obvious to most of us. Anyway, to answer your questions:
1. Is the debian-women supporters page an accurate representation of
debian support? (Amaya says fuller results are coming, so I'll wait.)
OK, that seems to have been answered by Amaya. Incase anyone has
forgotten, Amaya states clearly on that page that it is unofficial. If
you still have a question regarding that page, I suggest you ask Amaya
directly, because the rest of us on this list can't help with that.
2. Should we allow any debian part to discriminate on the basis of
In my opinion no. In my opinion, debian does discriminate against
women, in ways that the debian-women project is trying to address. See
bug#263084 as an example of the kinds of positive action d-w people are
involved in, and the way in which debian as a whole is happily helping
with this stuff.
3. How does one fix a bug with a created list? (answered by pasc, with
more details on IRC)
4. Why did no-one challenge a racist, classist, religionist and sexist
post to debian-women? (you say "Who cares?")
Presumably because nobody felt like it, or had time/energy to do it.
Why didn't you challenge it when it was made? Why didn't you challenge
the sexist (demeaning to women), religionist (insulting to
wicca/witches) and other such statements thave have been made on this
mailing list? If you won't take responsibility for doing so, why are
you accusing us of it?
Personally, I challenge statements that bother me when I notice them, if
I have time etc. That doesn't make me (or any other individual, or the
project as a whole) responsible for challenging every possibly
objectionable statement when it was made.
5. Should discussions for which there are other debian lists be accepted
on debian-women just because they involve women?
Yes, potentially. Some discussions on any mailing list may be also
appropriate for a different list. Seeing as everyone in debian is
welcome to join the debian-women list, that isn't a problem. Actually,
I fully expect that the existance of debian-women will increase
participation, particularly by women, on lists such as -devel and
-mentors. I'm sure everyone here will agree that this is a good thing.
You are welcome to help us encourage women to be involved in all aspects
of debian, which is one of the aims of this project (as stated on
http://women.alioth.debian.org/faqs/ ). For example, maybe you could
help out with the idea Erinn has mentioned previously (see earlier posts
to the list) of organising and running helpful classes on -mentors.
6. What non-discriminatory action do debian-women wish to take that
would not be possible (or even stronger) within a more general list of
We wish to increase the participation of women in debian. It's a
specfic aim, pitched at solving one of a range of similar problems
within the debian community. This problem will not be as easily solved
with a less focussed project (like your proposed -equality). However
you are entirely welcome (encouraged, even), to start whatever other
lists you like. I would be interested in -equality - I think it's a
Maybe debian-women isn't who I thought it was. #debian-women is far more
nasty than most other debian channels I have used.
Well the response you got is probably a bit like the response I might
get if I first wrote to debian-devel explaining that I found the debian
project offensive and thought it shouldn't exist and should at the least
change its name to something I liked better, and then joined
#debian-devel and tried to impose my views on everyone there. Do you
honestly think people would not say anything at all unpleasant to me?
A hint for next time you join #debian-women: starting by not questioning
the validity of our existence will probably mean you get a friendlier
discussion, if that is what you desire.