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Re: gr_lenny vs gr_socialcontract

On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Anthony Towns wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 09:54:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Anthony Towns wrote:
>> >>         I tend to come down hard on the side of not compromising my
>> >>  principles for temporary convenience or popularity (or, if you will,
>> >>  market share).
>> >>         To paraphrase: Those who give up essential freedoms for
>> >>  temporary convenience and popularity deserve neither.
>> > And, uh, isn't that a bit needlessly argumentative? Marc's not trying to
>> > get anyone to give up essential freedoms, or give them up himself.
>>         I did not mean this to be argumentative. A rhetorical flourish,
>>  yes.  The quote is from a US politicial, and the analogy between the
>>  constitutions and bill of rights was amusing.
> Uh, surely it's obvious that following any example from a political arena
> is going to be much more argumentative than necessary?

        Not to me, it isn't obvious. Ben Franklin was more than just a
 run-of-the-mill  joe politician, and a diplomat before standing for
 public office; and the quote seemed quite apropos, from my view.

        However, since offense is in the eye of the beholder, I'll
 withdraw the amusing paraphrase.

>>         But I do think that the DFSG represents the essential freedoms
>>  for software, as defined by the Debian project. Shipping stuff that
>>  violates the DFSG is indeed giving up essential freedoms, in my view.
> I consider being able to easily install Debian and get it running on
> whatever random hardware I buy an essential freedom, so I see most of

        It is a convenience, not a freedom. There is a difference. And
 yes, even now, the ability to install non-free firmware using the
 Debian installer exists (since the user does not appear to care that
 the firmware in question is not actually free), thanks to the d-i team
 accepting a USB key with the firmware.

> this as people trying to take away my freedoms.  Obviously, your
> mileage varies, but that doesn't make either of us popularity seeking
> knaves.

        I am not sure I cater to the view that all opinions are always
 correct.  You have a right to an opinion, and I have a right to regard
 that opinion as wrong. Now, I ought to be able  to convey that without
 sliding over into "needlessly argumentative" territory.  As to it being
 populist, I am not seeing that as provicative either; shifting to the
 side of convenience over abstract freedoms is a populist move (most
 people rarely exercise the freedoms that are granted to them by the
 DFSG).  I am not being argumentative here either -- I do think it is
 so, and I think I can defend that view.

        I still hold that shipping non-free components as part of the
 Debian system, etc, etc, as above.

"He who flames improperly risks making an ash of himself!" Jeff Klumpp
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@debian.org> <http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/>  
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

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