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Re: First call for votes for the Lenny release GR

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:18:12AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Bas Wijnen <wijnen@debian.org> writes:
> > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:16:43PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> >> But more fundamentally it doesn't matter.  Combining things that were
> >> proposed separately seems to be clearly overreaching the authority of
> >> the Secretary, as there's nothing in "Standard Resolution Procedures"
> >> which allows this to be done.
> >
> > IMO A.1.1 allows this,
> Where?  That states how you make an amendment.  It doesn't say that the
> secretary can declare something that isn't an amendment to be an
> amendment so far as I can tell.

It says "according to the requirements for a new resolution", which
seems to allow things proposed as a new resolution to really be
amendments.  I admit it's not really clear, and can as well mean that
an amendment is something different which only has the same

> > and A.3.4 of course means that the secretary's opinion on this is the
> > "correct" one.
> Yes, agreed, but I can still disagree with that decision and say that it
> feels like overreaching to decide it that way.

Of course.

> >> No, it's not.  It says nothing at all about a delegate decision
> >> violating either the constitution or the DFSG.  The wording of choice
> >> one is a delegate decision override, not a statement about what is and
> >> is not in the consitution or the DFSG, except that it doesn't even
> >> mention there *was* a delegate decision.
> >
> > I agree that the wording of several options, including 1 and 5, is very
> > vague.  I assumed that it was clear that ignoring a DFSG violation for a
> > release is in itself a violation of the DFSG.  This view is appearantly
> > not shared by everyone.
> Surely you realize that this phrasing is highly controversial and
> confrontational, given that the release team doesn't believe that they're
> ignoring the DFSG?

Are you talking about my wording, or about the wording of the options?
I'm sorry, but I don't see controversy or confrontation in any of them.
If you're talking about my text, then I apologize to anyone who is hurt
by it; that was not my intention at all.

> I don't believe they are either.

Neither do I.  The reason I asked was because you seemed to say that
they were, and that FD would allow them to continue doing that.  I now
understand that you didn't mean that.

> I really wish people would stop accusing other project members of
> ignoring the DFSG even if you disagree strongly with their
> interpretation of how the DFSG is applied.

I think you are talking about me here.  I haven't actually seen anyone
making this accusation.  The only time it was mentioned was when I asked
you if this was what you meant.  To be clear, I immediately followed it
with a statement saying that I didn't actually think so myself.

> If there were something in the constitution detailing decision-making
> process around foundation documents and their interpretation, it would
> have made this whole conflict easier to resolve.  But so far as I can
> tell, there isn't, apart from application to voting specifically.  Any
> such decisions therefore, under the constitution, are resolved the same
> way as any other delegate decision so far as I can tell.  There's no
> special magic that applies because one thinks a delegate decision violates
> a foundation document, nor any pre-emptive rejection of such a decision.
> As near as I can tell, the only thing that binds individual developers to
> follow the foundation documents are the promises that we all made when we
> joined the project to do so, which means that our understanding and
> interpretation of what they mean and how they should be applied is what is
> most relevant in the absence of a GR override of a decision.

I think I agree with this...  However, it means that if anyone (delegate
or other DD) is violating a foundation document, only a 1:1 majority is
needed to allow it by not deciding to forbid it.  That does seem
rather strange, since 3:1 would be required (IMO at least) to explicitly
decide that it is allowed.

> It's kind of an intriguing way of organizing it.  I'm not sure this is a
> bad thing.

I would have to think about that as well.


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