Re: drop or keep non-free - from users viewpoint
On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 04:26:47PM +0100, Markus wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:20:12 +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> > Err, the unattended addition of random third party packages of varrying
> > quality is on of the cause of the unstability of .rpm based systems.
>
> On a standard Debian, RedHat, SuSE, Mandrake,.. system i have not
> seen any stability changes if someone installed a programm like spim. It
> maybe another situation if you install additional kernel modules like
> nvidia drivers, but thats binary drivers and there is no different whether
> this binary comes from a deb, rpm or tar.gz package.
Well, spim may be an exception, but as soon as you speak about
libraries, and different versions from different sources of those, you
are starting to do into the .rpm dependency hell problem.
> >> Not completely. Because Debian also recommend and suggest non-free
> >> Software in there main System and promoting it on there homepage, as i
> >> mentioned in my first mail.
> >
> > Ah ? I don't see on-free advertized on the front page, i may be blind
> > though, or otherwise havez missed that. Also, i am lead to believe that
> > as of the sarge release, non-free will no more be proposed to new
> > installs.
>
> Yes the installation system of sarge will definitely an improvement. But
> main package still recommend or suggest non-free package which is some
> kind of advertising and promoting of non-free software.
And ? Where is this problem. We claim that we will not make base
dependent on non-free item, not that we will totally ignore those. Also,
it is quite hidden info, and a casual user will never even notice those
probably.
> If i talk from the homepage i don't mean something like advertising
> banners or something like this. But for example, if a user search in the
Well, you speak about the homepage, and this mean the actual home page,
and the text you can read on it. What you seem to imply is the full
content of the web site, and especially those stuff which is well hidden
from casual observation.
> package database on the Debian site he will by default search also in the
> non-free archive and by the right keyword the result will show him
> non-free software, i think this is also some kind of promoting.
Well, a bit well hidden for promotion, don't you think ? We could also
say that googling for .deb will show non-free stuff, no ?
> > Well, you find their call for help on the debian user support lists,
> > which even if you don't respond to them, take a certain amount of time
> > only to read them, and distinguish them from other legitimate help
> > requests.
>
> but i think you have this questions independent from the question whether
> Debian drops non-free or not.
But it will be worse if the user will have to self compile those
software pieces like you suggest, believe me.
> I think the Debian user list is, like the name says, in the first place a
> user list. Users sometimes use non-free software or non-free drivers, and
> than users asks users for help on a users list. This has nothing to do
> with the question whether or not Debian will distribute non-free.
> Today there are such questions and they will be there in the feature
> independent from the non-free decision.
Well, i used to hang on user-french, and help replying questions there
as best i can. This i also consider as part of my debian work. I don't
have time for that anymore though.
> >> But i think it shouldn't be just the decision of the maintainer. I
> >> think
> >
> > And, nothing is stopping the technical comite to take this decision and
> > remove the package. Even you could, i think, appeal to the techincal
> > comitee if the maintainer is not active enough on a bug report asking
> > for a reasoned removal of the package. But i doubt you care enough for
> > that, but would be happy to be proved wrong.
>
> if a normal user can ask for removing some programs from non-free and this
> will be considered from independent people (not only the maintainer) than
> i will do this. So far i have not known such a place.
Well, the maintainer will see the bug reports. If he don't act on it, or
is unreasonable, the technical comittee is able to intervene. Your
request has to be reasonable and well thought though.
> >> But it wouldn't legitimated and labeled by Debian.
> >
> > Naturally it would, at least it would be so in the imaginations of our
> > users.
>
> not more than now. If its is no more part of Debian than main package will
> not suggest or recommend these packages and you will not find them in the
> package database on the Debian homepage.
And i seriously believe that removing recomends and suggests will be a
bad thing. If this is indeed the case, it is indeed one more reason not
to drop non-free, thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Also, what about conflicts ?
> It would be there like apt-get.org or backports.org or rpm sources for
> other Distributions but it would nothing have to do directly with Debian.
Except by being maintained by the exact same set of debian developers.
Friendly,
Sven Luther
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