Re: linux kernel and nvidia - never ending story
Am Montag, 7. März 2022, 20:46:40 CET schrieb Christian Britz:
Hi Christian,
I feel to answer your post and have to correct some of your essays.
> Hello Hans,
>
> I understand your frustration, I was also frustrated sometimes back when
> I used nVidia, but IMO Debian is not to blame here, the situation is
> completely the responsibility of nVidia.
>
> 0. After reading your post again, I realize that sections 1 to 4 of my
> reply do not really apply to your situation. I leave them in my text
> though, because in my opionion they describe the general problem with
> nvidia quite well.
>
Yes, good idea.
> 1. You are probably not talking about Debian stable and the kernel that
> ships with it. I have not checked, but the binary nVidia packages almost
> certainly have not disappeared from Debian stable non-free within a
> release cycle. Nothing should have broken with the latest dot kernel
> update. If you have problems, please specify further. Testing/unstable
> may break at any time, you have to deal with that, especially when using
> non-free software, which can only be fixed to a certain amount by the
> maintainers.
No, I DO talk about debian/stable! And when I mean stable, I talk about
bullseye. I expect bullseye to work.
>
> 2. If you are talking about kernels newer than the one in Debian stable,
> the problem is a problem by design that can and will happen with every
> Linux distribution. The reason is simply that the kernel interfaces
> which nVidia uses are not stable and were never intended to be used by
> non-free software. Eventually, nVidia will adapt their interface module
> and release a new driver package. Eventually, this will be integrated in
> Debian non-free. It is a race between the kernel developers and the
> nvidia developers, which nvidia never can win. If at all, you can blame
> Linus and the developers for not providing a stable interface for
> proprietary non-free software. I fear they will laugh at you, at best.
> Some kernel developers even have the opinion that it is a GPL violation
> what nvidia does.
Oh, no, this I see not this way. When there is a new kernel shipped, I expect
that this does not break the system! I expect that at least the code, that is
already existent, builds. This is not too much expected! Why is it called
stable???
>
> 3. If you are not satisfied how fast updated nvidia drivers are
> integrated into testing/unstable, you could always install the drivers
> manually from the website of nvidia. It is not very hard to do if you
> are used to Linux.
>
This does NOT work., as I told. The drivers from the nvidia site do no more
build with a new kernel version. Who is then to blame? Those, who change the
kernel or those who do not change the drivers? It is the kernel that changed,
who breaks the system, not the driver, who has NOT chenged!
> 4. Given the circumstances, I feel the nvidia integration in Debian
> quite smooth, on stable it works almost out of the box (if your card is
> not too new, but that is a general issue with the stable concept of Debian).
Agreed! If you get the driver compiled, then it is working very well, if you
get it compiled.....
>
> 5. I only now realize that your card is actually too OLD, sorry. What
> should I say, the latest release of the 340 branch from nvidia is dating
> back to 2019.12.23. If they dont support their older products anymore
> themselves, do you expect Debian to hack their closed source driver?
>
And what? 3 years is too old??? I do not expect the drivers to be improved,
but I expect, that the drivers can be used further on! This is not to few to
be expected, isn't it?
> 6. If nvidia would only be a little bit more cooperative, nouveau would
> be in a much better state. I found it usable for older cards, although
> the prorietary driver is of course much better in terms of performance
> and power saving.
>
As I wrote, please read it again: The nouveau driver does not work for this
card, X is totally unstable and so often freezing, that it can not be used.
Did I tell, it is debian/stable?
> 7. Intel (what I use these days) and AMD support Linux in a much cleaner
> way, avoiding many of the problems with the nvidia blob.
>
Yes, may be, but who cares. As I wrote, it is not possible, to change the
graphics card in noterbooks.
> 8. If you buy a system with the goal to use it over many years, I can
> only reccomend to choose hardware components wich can be well supported
> by free drivers. Please support companies that support Linux well, like
> Intel and AMD.
>
Why shhould one? Shall I tell all customers, "Hey, throw away your 5 or 8 year
old stuff!", which yesterday worked well and today, after an upgrade does no
more, because a simple driver can not be compiled? No, that is the wrong way!
The whole story with Nvidia-modules is shit, and even when I no come into the
doghouse, IMO it is NOT the fault of Nvidia, how the developers always try to
tell! Someone ist just closing the eyes from the truth.
But my suggestion: Let us stop this discussion, because this will bring no
success, just a lot of trouble. And the danger, that it may become personally
to someone whoever. I told, what I wanted to tell, and now one can be think of
it or just forget of it.
Best regards
Hans
> Best Regards,
> Christian
>
> On 2022-03-07 19:49 UTC+0100, Hans wrote:
> > Dear list,
> >
> > how find the correct words, without being upset or stepping on someones
> > feet. But I believe, debian hates Nvidia, and debian does not want, to
> > use Nvidia.
> >
> > I am now for a long time using debian and also using nvidia graphic cards
> > for almost the same long time.
> >
> > But whenever debian ships a new kernel version, the proprietrary nvidia
> > kernel modules can not be built. If lucky, there is a patch for it after
> > months.
> >
> > Yes, modern Nvidia cards are supported, but using an older notebook you
> > can
> > not change the graphics card.
> >
> > But this is not a problem of Nvidia, not IMO it is a problem with the
> > kernel developers. Suddenly, with a kernel the gcc was updated, oh, now
> > the kernel module does not want it any more. Wtf? Or, with the new
> > kernel, the kernel module crashes during building, but builds perfectly
> > at the older kernel.
> >
> > And suddenly the kernel modul of nvidia disappears completely from the
> > repo, problems solved? Get lost, you foolish users with old hardware, buy
> > new hardware! What???
> >
> > Oh, and when someone says: Hey, use the nouveau driver, then tell him,
> > nouveau is not working.
> >
> > I have several older notebooks, that my customers use. They worked
> > perfectly with the proprietrary driver from Nvidia. But after update to
> > bullseye, it was hardly get them running again. And why? They have an old
> > graphics card in their notebooks, and they use Nvidia cards, specially
> > the legacy 340xx.
> >
> > But:
> >
> > 1. no problem, Install nvidia kernel 340xx, oh no, it is no more in the
> > repo, but
> >
> > 2. no problem, hey, use nouveau, oh no, nouveau crashes and freezes X, but
> >
> > 3. no problem, build just the downloaded 340xx from buster, oh no, does
> > not
> > build, wrong gcc installed, gcc to new, but
> >
> > 4. no problem, just downgrade gcc to the old one, oh no, many other
> > packages need to be deinstalled, too, but
> >
> > 5. no problem, just do it, oh no, does not build with the latest kernel,
> > but
> >
> > 6. no problem, just downgrade the kernel, too, oh no, no kernel from
> > bullseye is working, but
> >
> > 7. no problem, just reactivate buster and install latest kernel from
> > buster, and oh yes,
> >
> > 8. old kernel from buster let build 340xx, but oh no, kernel old...
> >
> > Well, I and these procedures are now accompanies me since years. New
> > kernel, and building fails. Youu feel lost, you feel anger, can you
> > believe me?
> >
> > In earlier times, debian potato and so, there were always prebuild kernel
> > modules for graphic cards, Nvidia or AMD or whatever. Today these are
> > gone,
> > and people with older cards are lost. IMO here debian lost a lots of its
> > quality.
> >
> > I thought a long time, if I should write this, and maybe I have not found
> > the correct words. I do not want to harsh anyone or attack anyone, you
> > know what I mean.
> >
> > But I felt in my heart, I had to say it.
> >
> > Please apologize, if someone is feeling agry about me now, this was not
> > intended. And thanks for reading this.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Hans
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