Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]
On 10-08-2021 10:59, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:06:43PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
>> On 10-08-2021 07:54, Andy Smith wrote:
>> > I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads
>> > that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to
>> > find; there's just so many of them.
>>
>> That wasn't the point. I pointed out an over dramatisation of the
>> situation is not conducive to the sort of accurate pre-analytical stage
>> required in order to specify a problem in order to deal with it
>> accurately.
>> Your answer to that is to specify `ridiculously off-topic threads'.
>
> I'm saying that the number of off-topics posts here is often well in
> excess of the number of on-topic ones, and that I think it isn't
> conducive to user support.
>
> And by "off-topic" I'm not talking about just replying in a
> conversational tone, or asking for clarifications, or suggesting
> other solutions or anything like that. I mean posts that become
> totally unrelated to Debian and its use.
>
> For the purposes of this conversation I do think these are easy to
> spot. I do understand that you feel these aren't an issue. I'm just
> saying why I don't think there's a need to specifically call these
> out right now.
>
>> Is there to be a rigorous deletion of anything not Debian related
>> within each email?
>
> I think it would be best if such things were not posted here, yes,
> not while this is the support venue.
>
>> Is there to be no polite, courteous format, simply because it's not
>> `Debian-related'?
>
> I would really have hoped that it would be obvious that I'm not
> asking for people to be impolite or discourteous; that I'm not
> talking about normal conversational responses to support queries
> being banned.
>
> I'm talking about things that have drifted completely away from
> being about Debian.
>
>> Things can get just a little too rigid, on the way to creating a total
>> lack of community that nobody wants to be a part of.
>>
>> > I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current
>> > situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do
>> > think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my
>> > opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for.
>>
>> And who isn't?
>
> Well, this bit was in response to you saying, "if there's a problem
> that requires resolution…" so was just me reiterating that I do
> think there is, but that I do understand that plenty of people don't
> think there is. i.e. this has not just come out of nowhere.
>
>> > Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through
>> > tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a
>> > better experience both for the question asker and later researchers
>> > who come across it.
>>
>> No, the rudeness is jumped on by members of the community more than
>> `moderators'.
>> The format changes nothing.
>
> I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. When I said
> "moderated" here, I meant by the people doing the moderation,
> which on a Stack site is mostly the community.
>
> I do find that quite effective in making poor answers and disruptive
> comments less visible on such sites, so I can't agree that the
> format changes nothing.
>
>> You might see one interjection as rude and unnecessary, while I might
>> see it as a required ingredient in placing a clown in their place.
>
> The idea that it would be necessary to put a clown in their place
> publicly and with the same visibility as other posts in the thread
> is something that feels to me most toxic in a support environment.
>
> We've all been there - someone posts a silly, inadvisable,
> ill-thought out or downright incorrect response to a support
> question. One feels compelled to post a correction. Hopefully one
> manages to do so without being overly offensive or cruel, but
> putting a clown in their place can go that way sometimes. It's good
> that the correction was delivered, less so if it ended up being
> delivered in an offensive way, but even after that, the correction
> just has the weight of one email in a thread.
>
> Often times, the worst clowns are convinced they aren't clowns at
> all. They will double down on their wrongness, and they can post
> just as often as you can.
>
> A lot of the time it needs experienced users to spot what is a
> good answer (or good advice) and what is bad. It doesn't work so
> well to go by who delivers the most devastating come-back or who
> hammers their point home most forcefully or most often.
>
> The Stack sites I frequent do seem to benefit from poor quality
> answers and comments being moderated away. People can still engage
> in back and forth conflict but what most people consider to be the
> best answers float to the top. There isn't much need to place clowns
> in their place for all to see and I think the support experience is
> better for it.
>
>> > There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a
>> > search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack
>> > Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists.
>>
>> Quite often that's the case, and so it should be.
>
> If you agree with this point, what is your opposition to such a
> thing being the primary user support venue of Debian? As in direct
> support queries to such a thing and leave debian-user basically as
> it is?
>
>> > New users can't do this. Of course they can be taught but that is a
>> > huge impediment to getting their problems solved.
>>
>> If they can't handle the most basic use of a mail agent, they can't do
>> anything.
>
> This feels really elitist and can be used to counter any attempt to
> make things easier or better for unskilled users.
>
> You know, just because we paid our dues over the years having a hard
> time gathering knowledge, it doesn't mean that everyone else should
> too, almost as if it's some sort of trial to check they are worthy.
> I feel that's generally true but even moreso when you consider that
> by making it hard for people who aren't like you, you tend to only
> recruit people who are like you.
>
> If it's desirable to have some sort of exclusive club of users who
> put enough effort in to have earned the right to ask questions and
> participate in debate then fair enough, no reason why that can't
> exist. But should it be where the Debian project directs its users
> first and foremost?
>
> In terms of numbers of questions asked and answers accepted per
> day, Ask Ubuntu does some really good numbers you know.
>
>> > People coming by later to find answers also still have to sift
>> > through it all.
>>
>> `have to sift through it all' and `They are not hard to
>> find; there's just so many of them' - do make up your mind.
>
> Come on now. Imagine coming across an unfamiliar list's archive,
> seeing a subject line that might be related to a problem you're
> having, and then tens or hundreds of responses that seem to diverge
> away from that topic but you can never be quite sure whether they
> will return or not.
>
> That's a very different scenario from me saying, "just look back
> through the list recently and you'll find many examples of
> completely off-topic postings".
>
>> they generally have the addition of something ;like `Off-Topic' in
>> the header.
>> So, if they're easy to recognise, where's the problem?
>
> I don't believe that new users do find them easy to recognise, nor
> that casual archive browsers appreciate the diversions from topic.
>
> I don't believe that new users do appreciate having some irrelevant
> part of their post picked up on and turned into sprawling
> sub-thread that isn't even about Debian let alone their question.
>
> I don't believe that most users benefit when such threads go way out
> of control and result in code of conduct violations that are never
> addressed.
>
> I think there is a relatively small group, out of the thousands
> subscribed here, that enjoy those diversions and perpetuating them,
> and that it really only serves them.
>
> So that's where I think the problems are and why I think it would be
> good to try separating the user support from the debate club.
I'm afraid this conversation is a waste of time.
The goal posts are moved around at convenience, rather in than any
serious manner at resolving an issue that is minor, if even existent.
Cheers!
Harry.
--
`Unthinking respect for authority is
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein
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