Re: Another system management tool to disappear.
Quoting The Wanderer (wanderer@fastmail.fm):
> Debian could not have chosen systemd if Lennart had not written it, and
> Debian could not have chosen systemd-in-its-current-form if Lennart had
> not designed it in that form, so some layer of the blame does fall on
> him.
That's a very interesting argument. Can we apply it to Presidents' parents?
> There are plenty of reports of systems which worked just fine with a
> given configuration which do not work with that configuration after
> being transitioned to systemd; for one easy non-cosmetic example (there
> are apparently others), consider the "a failed mount which is not
> explicitly marked for failures to be ignored will result in a failed
> boot" behavior, which did not occur without systemd but does happen with
> systemd.
>
> Yes, you can change your system's configuration to make it work, but in
> a stable system you shouldn't have to. (And I'm not talking about
> "stable" in the sense of the Debian repository codenames; I'm talking
> about 'stable" in the larger sense.)
I can't see what's wrong with adding new features or with changing
defaults. Your example was documented in the release notes.
Personally I'm more unhappy with the fact that the fstab man page
implies the file is interpreted whereas systemd's behaviour is more
like as if it's been compiled.
> On a more cosmetic level, without systemd, if you use a "quiet" option
> on the kernel command line you will silence kernel output during boot
> but not silence service-startup (etc.) option during the later stages of
> the bootstrap process - but with systemd, using that option silences
> both kernel output _and_ service-startup (etc.) output..
>
> Yes, you can add half-a-dozen-ish systemd-specific options on the kernel
> command line to get systemd to display the same combination of output
> types as would have happened by default without systemd - but if you
> have to change your system configuration in order to get the same
> behavior, that system is not behaving in a stable fashion.
All I've added to /etc/default/grub is systemd.show_status=true
which gives me about the same level of output from booting as
before. (A bit more, it's true: eg it says both starting and started
for each service, and the granularity is finer.)
> Also on a mostly-cosmetic level, if you log in at a text console without
> systemd, you will get a certain set of messages, coming mostly from
> login and from your shell - but with systemd, logging in at a text
> console also produces a mess of extra messages coming from logind, which
> are largely irrelevant to whoever just logged in and which step all over
> either the original set of messages or the actual shell prompt.
>
> As far as I've been able to determine, there is no way to get logind to
> not produce these messages, without also preventing it from producing
> messages later - or in background logging - which you might actually
> want. And, if I'm interpreting the situation correctly, you will
> probably see these messages in your console every time _anyone_ gets a
> new "session" on that computer, even if it's not you. This is the
> final-straw behavior which led me to reject systemd for my own systems.
I've tried to work out what you're talking about here. Here's a
comparison of my (admittedly rather noisy) VC login on two systems:
west!david 12:22:14 ~ $ diff -U0 VC-login-*[ey]
--- VC-login-jessie 2015-08-31 11:34:23.476573261 -0500
+++ VC-login-wheezy 2015-08-31 11:38:11.000000000 -0500
@@ -0,0 +1,3 @@
+[....] Starting MTA:hostname --fqdn did not return a fully qualified
name, dc_minimaldns will not work.
+Please fix your /etc/hosts setup.
+[ ok 4.
@@ -2 +5 @@
-Debian GNU/Linux jessie/sid west tty2 Mon Aug 31 2015 11:32:04
+Debian GNU/Linux 7 wheezy alum tty1 Mon Aug 31 2015 06:01:14
@@ -4 +7 @@
-west login: david
+alum login: david
@@ -6,2 +9,2 @@
-Last login: Mon Aug 31 08:37:15 CDT 2015 on tty2
-Linux west 3.16.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.16.7-ckt11-1+deb8u3
(2015-08-04) i686
+Last login: Mon Aug 31 09:44:02 CDT 2015 from west on pts/3
+Linux alum 3.2.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.2.68-1+deb7u3 i686
@@ -15 +18 @@
-You have new mail.
+You have mail.
@@ -18,6 +21,6 @@
-(This is /home/david/.bash-1-west 2015 July 13 on jessie)
-(This is /home/david/.bash-9-west 2015 August 04)
-Disks last checked: Tuesday 18 August
-west!david 11:32:11 ~ $ ls -l /sbin/init
-lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 May 26 11:40 /sbin/init ->
/lib/systemd/systemd
-west!david 11:33:27 ~ $ cat > VC-login-jessie
+(This is /home/david/.bash-1-alum 2015 July 13 on wheezy)
+(This is /home/david/.bash-9-alum 2015 July 29)
+Disks last checked: Friday 28 August
+alum!david 11:37:01 ~ $ ls -l /sbin/init
+-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 35216 Jul 17 2013 /sbin/init
+alum!david 11:37:12 ~ $ cat > VC-login-wheezy
1 west!david 12:22:24 ~ $
> (And, no, logind is not systemd-the-PID1-binary - but is part of
> systemd-the-collection-of-other-binaries-which-orbit-that-binary, and is
> developed by systemd-the-project-which-develops-all-those-binaries. This
> is part of the name ambiguity which I was wanting to fix.)
I was unaware of the existence of logind until I once saw messages
about it failing to start (which IIRC had no effect on my ability to
log in).
Cheers,
David.
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