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Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream

Martin Steigerwald <Martin@lichtvoll.de> writes:

> Am Montag, 22. September 2014, 23:50:46 schrieb lee:
>> Martin Steigerwald <Martin@lichtvoll.de> writes:
>>
>> Do you really think they will be able to prevent all the other
>> software from depending on a particular init system or parts of it?
>
> Well… thats to be taken upstream, isn´t it?

Then why don't the developers or the distributions do just that?  Nobody
cares when one user or another questions whether it's a good idea to
depend on systemd, and it might be much different if a lot of developers
and/or whole distributions would, in the interest of their users,
question this dependency and refuse their support eventually until the
issues systemd and software depending on it brings about.

>> > So I don´t think systemd upstream has the power to control Debian.
>> > 
>> > Debian is a community project. No single upstream is going to control it.
>> 
>> Gimp already depends on (parts of) systemd in current stable.  Do you
>> know a way to install gimp without installing (parts of) systemd?  And
>> gimp is not the only thing with a dependency like this.
>> 
>> Supporting systemd and making systemd even the default init system opens
>> the door for it to increasingly take control of software totally
>> unrelated to an init system a bit wider.  It seems that this door cannot
>> be closed anymore.
>
> Didn´t know about GIMP.

Apparently I'm wrong about gimp depending on systemd.  I need to look
into that when I have more time.

> Adopting it encourages this behavour.

Yes, it's like self-perpetuating.  Instead of thinking the issue
through, people are much more like "hey, it's there anyway, so what".

Just one day they might wake up and find out that it was a very bad idea
to depend on systemd, and then it'll be difficult to do without.

> Yet, there is still choice. You can avoid upstream who depend on systemd. 
> Debian itself still is able to run without systemd as far as I know.

Try to run Fedora without systemd ...  Just to give you an idea (sorry
for the length):


[root@yun:/etc/shorewall]$ repoquery --whatrequires systemd
389-admin-0:1.1.35-1.fc20.x86_64
389-ds-base-0:1.3.2.7-1.fc20.x86_64
389-ds-base-0:1.3.2.23-1.fc20.x86_64
3proxy-0:0.6.1-17.fc20.x86_64
BackupPC-0:3.2.1-15.fc20.x86_64
BackupPC-0:3.3.0-2.fc20.x86_64
Canna-0:3.7p3-40.fc20.x86_64
Canna-0:3.7p3-41.fc20.x86_64
LogService-0:2.8.0-4.fc20.x86_64
MAKEDEV-0:3.24-13.fc20.x86_64
MySQL-zrm-0:2.2.0-15.fc20.noarch
MySQL-zrm-0:3.0-3.fc20.noarch
NetworkManager-1:0.9.9.0-20.git20131003.fc20.x86_64
NetworkManager-1:0.9.9.0-44.git20131003.fc20.x86_64
OpenIPMI-0:2.0.19-9.fc20.x86_64
PackageKit-0:0.8.13-1.fc20.x86_64
PackageKit-0:0.8.17-1.fc20.x86_64
Pound-0:2.6-7.fc20.x86_64
VirtualBox-0:4.3.4-1.fc20.x86_64
VirtualBox-0:4.3.16-1.fc20.x86_64
abrt-0:2.1.9-1.fc20.x86_64
abrt-0:2.2.2-1.fc20.x86_64
accountsservice-0:0.6.35-3.fc20.x86_64
accountsservice-0:0.6.35-4.fc20.x86_64
acpid-0:2.0.20-2.fc20.x86_64
acpid-0:2.0.21-1.fc20.x86_64
ahcpd-0:0.53-6.fc20.x86_64
ahcpd-0:0.53-7.fc20.x86_64
aic94xx-firmware-0:30-6.fc20.noarch
aiccu-0:2007.01.15-17.fc20.x86_64
akmods-0:0.5.1-3.fc19.noarch
alsa-firmware-0:1.0.27-2.fc20.noarch
alsa-tools-firmware-0:1.0.27-3.fc20.x86_64
alsa-utils-0:1.0.27.2-3.fc20.x86_64
alsa-utils-0:1.0.27.2-4.fc20.x86_64
am-utils-5:6.1.5-29.fc20.x86_64
am-utils-5:6.1.5-30.fc20.x86_64
amanda-0:3.3.3-6.fc20.x86_64
amanda-0:3.3.3-10.fc20.x86_64
ampr-ripd-0:1.11-1.fc20.x86_64
amprd-0:1.4-2.fc20.x86_64
and-0:1.2.2-20.fc20.x86_64
android-tools-0:20130123git98d0789-2.fc20.x86_64
anyterm-0:1.1.29-20.fc20.x86_64
apcupsd-0:3.14.10-13.fc20.x86_64
apcupsd-0:3.14.12-1.fc20.x86_64
apg-0:2.3.0b-21.fc20.x86_64
aprsd-0:2.2.5-15.6.fc19.5.x86_64
aprsdigi-0:3.5.1-2.fc20.x86_64
apt-0:0.5.15lorg3.95-9.git522.1.fc20.x86_64
apt-0:0.5.15lorg3.95-10.git522.1.fc20.x86_64
apt-cacher-ng-0:0.7.26-2.fc20.x86_64
argus-0:3.0.6.1-3.fc20.x86_64
arptables_jf-0:0.0.8-36.fc20.x86_64
arpwatch-14:2.1a15-30.fc20.x86_64
asterisk-0:11.5.1-2.fc20.x86_64
asterisk-0:11.10.2-2.fc20.x86_64
at-0:3.1.13-13.fc20.x86_64
at-0:3.1.13-14.fc20.x86_64
atop-0:2.0.2-2.fc20.x86_64
audio-entropyd-0:2.0.3-5.fc20.x86_64
audio-entropyd-0:2.0.3-6.fc20.x86_64
audit-0:2.3.2-1.fc20.x86_64
audit-0:2.4-1.fc20.x86_64
authd-0:1.4.3-40.fc20.x86_64
authhub-0:0.1.2-3.fc19.x86_64
autodir-0:0.99.9-16.fc20.x86_64
autofs-1:5.0.7-29.fc20.x86_64
autofs-1:5.0.7-40.fc20.x86_64
autotest-framework-server-0:0.14.4-3.fc20.noarch
autotest-framework-server-0:0.16.0-2.fc20.noarch
avahi-0:0.6.31-21.fc20.x86_64
awstats-0:7.1.1-5.fc20.noarch
b43-openfwwf-0:5.2-10.fc20.noarch
babeld-0:1.4.2-3.fc20.x86_64
babeld-0:1.4.3-1.fc20.x86_64
bacula-client-0:5.2.13-17.fc20.x86_64
bacula-client-0:5.2.13-18.fc20.x86_64
bacula-director-0:5.2.13-17.fc20.x86_64
bacula-director-0:5.2.13-18.fc20.x86_64
bacula-storage-0:5.2.13-17.fc20.x86_64
bacula-storage-0:5.2.13-18.fc20.x86_64
bacula2-client-0:2.4.4-16.fc20.x86_64
bacula2-client-0:2.4.4-17.fc20.x86_64
bandwidthd-0:2.0.1-24.fc20.x86_64
bcfg2-0:1.3.2-2.fc20.noarch
bcfg2-0:1.3.3-5.fc20.noarch
bcfg2-server-0:1.3.2-2.fc20.noarch
bcfg2-server-0:1.3.3-5.fc20.noarch
beanstalkd-0:1.9-1.fc20.x86_64
bfa-firmware-0:3.2.21.1-3.fc20.noarch
bind-32:9.9.4-8.fc20.x86_64
bind-32:9.9.4-15.P2.fc20.x86_64
bind-chroot-32:9.9.4-8.fc20.x86_64
bind-chroot-32:9.9.4-15.P2.fc20.x86_64
bind-sdb-32:9.9.4-8.fc20.x86_64
bind-sdb-32:9.9.4-15.P2.fc20.x86_64
bind10-0:1.1.0-10.fc20.x86_64
bind10-0:1.1.0-11.fc20.x86_64
biosdevname-0:0.5.0-2.fc20.x86_64
bip-0:0.8.9-1.fc20.x86_64
bip-0:0.8.9-2.fc20.x86_64
bird-0:1.3.11-1.fc20.x86_64
bird6-0:1.3.11-1.fc20.x86_64
bitlbee-0:3.2-6.fc20.x86_64
bitlbee-0:3.2.2-3.fc20.x86_64
bluez-0:5.12-1.fc20.x86_64
bluez-0:5.18-1.fc20.x86_64
boa-0:0.94.14-0.21.rc21.fc20.x86_64
boinc-client-0:7.0.65-2.git79b00ef.fc20.x86_64
boinc-client-0:7.2.42-1.gitdd0d630.fc20.x86_64
bootparamd-0:0.17-39.fc20.x86_64
brltty-0:4.5-9.fc20.x86_64
bro-0:1.5.1-9.fc20.x86_64
btkbdd-0:1.3-5.fc20.x86_64
bwbar-0:1.2.3-15.fc20.x86_64
cachefilesd-0:0.10.5-4.fc19.x86_64
cego-0:2.19.11-1.fc20.x86_64
cego-0:2.20.9-1.fc20.x86_64
certmaster-0:0.28-7.fc20.noarch
certmonger-0:0.68-1.fc20.x86_64
certmonger-0:0.75.14-1.fc20.x86_64
cgdcbxd-0:1.0.1-3.fc20.x86_64
cherokee-0:1.2.103-3.fc20.x86_64
chrony-0:1.29-1.fc20.x86_64
chrony-0:1.30-2.fc20.x86_64
chunkd-0:0.8-0.14.gf9c5b967.fc20.x86_64
clamav-milter-systemd-0:0.98-2.fc20.noarch
clamav-milter-systemd-0:0.98.4-1.fc20.noarch
clamav-scanner-systemd-0:0.98-2.fc20.noarch
clamav-scanner-systemd-0:0.98.4-1.fc20.noarch
clamav-server-systemd-0:0.98-2.fc20.noarch
clamav-server-systemd-0:0.98.4-1.fc20.noarch
clamsmtp-0:1.10-12.fc20.x86_64
cld-0:0.8-0.14.gf9c5b967.fc20.x86_64
cloud-init-0:0.7.2-7.fc20.noarch
cloud-init-0:0.7.2-10.fc20.x86_64
cntlm-0:0.92.3-3.fc20.x86_64
cntlm-0:0.92.3-5.fc20.x86_64
cobbler-0:2.4.0-2.fc20.noarch
cobbler-0:2.6.3-1.fc20.noarch
collectd-0:5.3.0-5.fc20.x86_64
collectd-0:5.4.1-3.fc20.x86_64
collectl-0:3.6.9-1.fc20.noarch
collectl-0:3.7.3-1.fc20.noarch
colord-0:1.1.4-1.fc20.x86_64
colord-0:1.1.7-1.fc20.x86_64
community-mysql-0:5.5.34-1.fc20.x86_64
community-mysql-0:5.5.38-3.fc20.x86_64
community-mysql-server-0:5.5.34-1.fc20.x86_64
community-mysql-server-0:5.5.38-3.fc20.x86_64
compat-qpid-cpp-server-0:0.24-19.fc20.x86_64
condor-0:8.1.1-0.3.fc20.x86_64
conman-0:0.2.7-5.fc20.x86_64
connman-0:1.13-2.fc20.x86_64
connman-0:1.21-1.fc20.x86_64
conntrack-tools-0:1.4.2-1.fc20.x86_64
conntrack-tools-0:1.4.2-3.fc20.x86_64
conserver-0:8.1.18-9.fc20.x86_64
conserver-0:8.1.20-1.fc20.x86_64
copr-backend-0:1.26-1.fc20.noarch
copr-backend-0:1.32-1.fc20.noarch
corosync-0:2.3.2-1.fc20.x86_64
corosync-0:2.3.3-2.fc20.x86_64
couchdb-0:1.3.1-3.fc20.x86_64
couchdb-0:1.6.0-9.fc20.x86_64
crda-0:1.1.3_2013.02.13-4.fc20.x86_64
crda-0:1.1.3_2014.06.13-1.fc20.x86_64
cronie-0:1.4.11-4.fc20.x86_64
crossfire-0:1.70.0-7.fc20.x86_64
ctdb-0:2.4-1.fc20.x86_64
cumin-0:0.1.5776-2.fc20.noarch
cups-1:1.7.0-4.fc20.x86_64
cups-1:1.7.4-3.fc20.x86_64
cups-filters-0:1.0.41-4.fc20.x86_64
cups-filters-0:1.0.53-5.fc20.x86_64
cvs-0:1.11.23-33.fc20.x86_64
cwdaemon-0:0.9.4-16.fc19.x86_64
cyrus-imapd-0:2.4.17-6.fc20.x86_64
cyrus-sasl-0:2.1.26-14.fc20.x86_64
dansguardian-0:2.10.1.1-11.fc19.x86_64
darkhttpd-0:1.9-4.fc20.x86_64
darkhttpd-0:1.10-1.fc20.x86_64
darkstat-0:3.0.718-3.fc20.x86_64
dbmail-0:3.0.2-7.fc20.x86_64
dbus-1:1.6.12-1.fc20.x86_64
dbus-1:1.6.12-9.fc20.x86_64
ddclient-0:3.8.1-8.fc20.noarch
ddclient-0:3.8.1-9.fc20.noarch
deltacloud-core-0:1.1.3-1.fc20.noarch
deluge-daemon-0:1.3.6-4.fc20.noarch
denyhosts-0:2.6-29.fc20.noarch
derby-0:10.9.1.0-6.fc20.noarch
device-mapper-0:1.02.82-3.fc20.x86_64
device-mapper-0:1.02.85-1.fc20.x86_64
device-mapper-event-0:1.02.82-3.fc20.x86_64
device-mapper-event-0:1.02.85-1.fc20.x86_64
device-mapper-multipath-0:0.4.9-55.fc20.x86_64
device-mapper-multipath-0:0.4.9-56.fc20.x86_64
dhcp-12:4.2.5-26.fc20.x86_64
dhcp-12:4.2.7-2.fc20.x86_64
dhcp-forwarder-systemd-0:0.10-1905.fc20.noarch
dictd-server-0:1.12.1-3.fc20.x86_64
dictd-server-0:1.12.1-5.fc20.x86_64
dircproxy-0:1.2.0-0.20.RC1.fc20.x86_64
distcc-server-0:3.2rc1-5.fc20.x86_64
distcc-server-0:3.2rc1-8.fc20.x86_64
dkms-0:2.2.0.3-20.fc20.noarch
dkms-0:2.2.0.3-25.fc20.noarch
dlm-0:4.0.1-2.fc20.x86_64
dmapd-0:0.0.55-4.fc20.x86_64
dmapd-0:0.0.70-1.fc20.x86_64
dmraid-0:1.0.0.rc16-23.fc20.x86_64
dnf-0:0.4.8-1.fc20.noarch
dnf-0:0.5.4-2.fc20.noarch
dnrd-0:2.20.3-13.fc20.x86_64
dnsmasq-0:2.67-1.fc20.x86_64
dnsmasq-0:2.68-1.fc20.x86_64
dnssec-trigger-0:0.11-14.fc20.x86_64
dnssec-trigger-0:0.12-13.fc20.x86_64
docker-io-0:1.2.0-2.fc20.x86_64
docker-registry-0:0.7.1-2.fc20.noarch
dovecot-1:2.2.7-2.fc20.x86_64
dovecot-1:2.2.13-1.fc20.x86_64
dpm-copy-server-mysql-0:1.8.7-5.fc20.x86_64
dpm-copy-server-mysql-0:1.8.8-4.fc20.x86_64
dpm-name-server-mysql-0:1.8.7-5.fc20.x86_64
dpm-name-server-mysql-0:1.8.8-4.fc20.x86_64
dpm-rfio-server-0:1.8.7-5.fc20.x86_64
dpm-rfio-server-0:1.8.8-4.fc20.x86_64
dpm-server-mysql-0:1.8.7-5.fc20.x86_64
dpm-server-mysql-0:1.8.8-4.fc20.x86_64
dpm-srm-server-mysql-0:1.8.7-5.fc20.x86_64
dpm-srm-server-mysql-0:1.8.8-4.fc20.x86_64
dracut-0:034-64.git20131205.fc20.x86_64
dracut-0:037-11.git20140402.fc20.x86_64
drbd-udev-0:8.4.3-2.fc20.x86_64
dropbear-0:2013.59-1.fc20.x86_64
dropbear-0:2014.65-1.fc20.x86_64
dspam-0:3.10.2-11.fc20.x86_64
ebnetd-common-0:1.0-20.fc20.x86_64
ebtables-0:2.0.10-11.fc20.x86_64
ebtables-0:2.0.10-12.fc20.x86_64
edac-utils-0:0.16-8.fc20.x86_64
ejabberd-0:2.1.13-7.fc20.x86_64
erlang-0:R16B-03.7.fc20.x86_64
erlpmd-0:2.0.1-3.fc20.x86_64
etcd-0:0.1.2-2.fc20.x86_64
eucalyptus-cc-0:3.3.0-0.5.20130408git32052445.fc20.x86_64
eucalyptus-common-java-0:3.3.0-0.5.20130408git32052445.fc20.x86_64
eucalyptus-nc-0:3.3.0-0.5.20130408git32052445.fc20.x86_64
exchange-bmc-os-info-0:1.8.13-3.fc20.noarch
exim-0:4.80.1-6.fc20.x86_64
exim-0:4.80.1-7.fc20.x86_64
ez-ipupdate-0:3.0.11-0.27.b8.fc19.x86_64
ez-ipupdate-0:3.0.11-0.29.b8.fc20.x86_64
fail2ban-0:0.9-0.3.git1f1a561.fc20.noarch
fail2ban-0:0.9-2.fc20.noarch
fbterm-udevrules-0:1.7-3.fc20.x86_64
fcoe-utils-0:1.0.29-1.fc20.x86_64
fedfs-utils-client-0:0.9.4-1.fc20.x86_64
fedfs-utils-client-0:0.10.3-1.fc20.x86_64
fedfs-utils-server-0:0.9.4-1.fc20.x86_64
fedfs-utils-server-0:0.10.3-1.fc20.x86_64
fedup-0:0.8.1-1.fc20.noarch
fedup-dracut-0:0.8.0-2.fc20.x86_64
fedwatch-0:0.5-1.fc20.noarch
fence-virt-0:0.3.0-15.fc20.x86_64
fetch-crl-0:3.0.11-4.fc20.noarch
fetch-crl-0:3.0.14-1.fc20.noarch
fido-0:1.0.7-7.fc20.x86_64
fido-0:1.1.1-1.fc20.x86_64
finger-server-0:0.17-50.fc20.x86_64
firebird-classic-0:2.5.2.26539.0-8.fc20.x86_64
firebird-superclassic-0:2.5.2.26539.0-8.fc20.x86_64
firebird-superserver-0:2.5.2.26539.0-8.fc20.x86_64
firewalld-0:0.3.8-1.fc20.noarch
firewalld-0:0.3.11-3.fc20.noarch
fishpoll-0:0.1.7-2.fc20.noarch
flashrom-0:0.9.6.1-5.svn1705.fc20.x86_64
floppy-support-0:1.0.0-6.fc20.noarch
flow-tools-0:0.68.5.1-11.fc20.x86_64
flow-tools-0:0.68.5.1-12.fc20.x86_64
flumotion-0:0.10.0-7.fc20.x86_64
foghorn-0:0.1.6-6.fc20.x86_64
freeipa-server-0:3.3.2-1.fc20.x86_64
freeipa-server-0:3.3.5-1.fc20.x86_64
freeipmi-0:1.3.3-1.fc20.x86_64
freeipmi-0:1.3.4-1.fc20.x86_64
freenx-server-0:0.7.3-32.fc20.x86_64
freeradius-0:3.0.0-0.2.rc0.fc20.x86_64
freeradius-0:3.0.3-2.fc20.x86_64
frozen-bubble-server-0:2.2.1-0.7.beta1.fc20.x86_64
fsniper-0:1.3.1-12.fc20.x86_64
func-0:0.30-3.fc20.noarch
fwknop-0:2.5.1-1.fc20.x86_64
fxload-0:2002_04_11-14.fc20.x86_64
fxload-0:2008_10_13-1.fc20.x86_64
gadget-0:0.0.3-10.fc19.noarch
galera-0:25.3.5-4.fc20.x86_64
ganglia-gmetad-0:3.6.0-2.fc20.x86_64
ganglia-gmetad-0:3.6.0-4.fc20.x86_64
ganglia-gmond-0:3.6.0-2.fc20.x86_64
ganglia-gmond-0:3.6.0-4.fc20.x86_64
gdm-1:3.10.0.1-1.fc20.x86_64
geard-0:0-0.3.gitb31df16.fc20.x86_64
gearmand-0:1.1.8-4.fc20.x86_64
giis-0:4.6.2-6.fc20.x86_64
git-daemon-0:1.8.4.2-1.fc20.x86_64
git-daemon-0:1.9.3-1.fc20.x86_64
gkrellm-daemon-0:2.3.5-14.fc20.x86_64
gkrellm-daemon-0:2.3.5-17.fc20.x86_64
gksu-polkit-0:0.0.3-8.gitf8ce834c.fc20.x86_64
glite-lb-logger-0:2.4.23-1.fc20.x86_64
glite-lb-server-0:3.0.18-3.fc20.x86_64
glite-px-proxyrenewal-0:1.3.34-1.fc20.x86_64
glite-px-proxyrenewal-0:1.3.35-1.fc20.x86_64
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glusterfs-0:3.5.2-1.fc20.x86_64
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openstack-heat-api-0:2013.2-0.5.b2.fc20.noarch
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openstack-heat-api-cfn-0:2013.2-0.5.b2.fc20.noarch
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openstack-heat-api-cloudwatch-0:2013.2-0.5.b2.fc20.noarch
openstack-heat-api-cloudwatch-0:2013.2.3-1.1.fc20.noarch
openstack-heat-engine-0:2013.2-0.5.b2.fc20.noarch
openstack-heat-engine-0:2013.2.3-1.1.fc20.noarch
openstack-keystone-0:2013.2-0.9.b3.fc20.noarch
openstack-keystone-0:2013.2.3-5.fc20.noarch
openstack-neutron-0:2013.2-1.fc20.noarch
openstack-neutron-0:2013.2.3-13.fc20.noarch
openstack-nova-common-0:2013.2-2.fc20.noarch
openstack-nova-common-0:2013.2.3-2.fc20.noarch
openstack-savanna-0:0.2-3.fc20.noarch
openstack-savanna-0:2014.1.b1-1.fc20.noarch
openstack-swift-0:1.10.0-2.fc20.noarch
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os-collect-config-0:0.1.11-5.fc20.noarch
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ostree-0:2013.5-1.fc20.x86_64
ostree-0:2014.3-1.fc20.x86_64
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salt-0:0.17.1-1.fc20.noarch
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whatsup-pingd-0:1.14-6.fc20.x86_64
wicd-common-0:1.7.2.4-7.fc20.noarch
wicd-common-0:1.7.2.4-8.fc20.noarch
wildfly-0:8.0.0-0.12.Beta1.fc20.noarch
wildfly-0:8.1.0-3.fc20.noarch
wine-systemd-0:1.7.5-1.fc20.noarch
wine-systemd-0:1.7.26-1.fc20.noarch
wpa_supplicant-1:2.0-8.fc20.x86_64
x509watch-0:0.6.0-1.fc20.noarch
xen-0:4.3.1-2.fc20.x86_64
xen-0:4.3.3-1.fc20.x86_64
xfce4-session-0:4.10.1-3.fc20.x86_64
xinetd-2:2.3.15-8.fc20.x86_64
xinetd-2:2.3.15-11.fc20.x86_64
xl2tpd-0:1.3.1-14.fc20.x86_64
xl2tpd-0:1.3.6-1.fc20.x86_64
xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-1:331.20-6.fc20.x86_64
xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-1:331.79-2.fc20.x86_64
xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-1:331.89-2.fc20.x86_64
xorg-x11-server-Xorg-0:1.14.4-5.fc20.x86_64
xorg-x11-server-Xorg-0:1.14.4-11.fc20.x86_64
xorg-x11-xdm-1:1.1.11-6.fc20.x86_64
xpilot-ng-server-0:4.7.3-4.fc20.x86_64
xrdp-0:0.6.0-0.8.fc20.x86_64
xrdp-0:0.6.1-2.fc20.x86_64
yadifa-0:1.0.3-2.fc20.x86_64
ypbind-3:1.37.1-7.fc20.x86_64
ypbind-3:1.37.1-8.fc20.x86_64
ypserv-0:2.31-5.fc20.x86_64
ypserv-0:2.32-2.fc20.x86_64
yum-cron-0:3.4.3-152.fc20.noarch
yum-updatesd-1:0.9-15.fc20.noarch
zabbix-agent-0:2.0.9-1.fc20.x86_64
zabbix-agent-0:2.0.12-3.fc20.x86_64
zabbix-proxy-0:2.0.9-1.fc20.x86_64
zabbix-proxy-0:2.0.12-3.fc20.x86_64
zabbix-server-0:2.0.9-1.fc20.x86_64
zabbix-server-0:2.0.12-3.fc20.x86_64
zfs-fuse-0:0.7.0-15.fc20.x86_64
znc-0:1.2-2.fc20.x86_64
znc-0:1.4-1.fc20.x86_64
zoneminder-0:1.25.0-15.fc20.x86_64
zookeeper-server-0:3.4.5-12.fc20.noarch
zvbi-0:0.2.33-16.fc20.x86_64


I doubt you could get the system booted without systemd.  Mind you,
that's only packages directly depending on systemd.  You have to add to
that all the indirect dependencies.

Fedora does already depend on systemd --- and I would say completely.
Or do you see a choice here?

> I dislike this black and white thinking. Do I see dangers with systemd? Yes, I 
> do. Do I also see the advantages it brings? Yes, I do.

I still don't see any advantages.  Even if there are (technical)
advantages, the disadvantages outweigh them.

> Its not black, nor white, but something in between.

One thing systemd seems to be really good at is making for a single
point of failure.

I imagine that many people forget that "operating within normal
parameters" is a boring state.  Things get interesting when something
doesn't work or when a modification needs to be made.  A large part of
the quality of a software is determined by how well and easily it can be
dealt with in such instances, and one of the most important factors is
the quality of the documentation.  Systemd looks extremely bad in that
regard.

And I cannot just remove it and/or use something else.  When pulseaudio
or gimp don't work, I can remove them and use alsa (which I do) or
imagemagick.  When exim doesn't work (and it always worked in the last
20 years or so), I can remove it and use another MTA.

But systemd is not removable and cannot be replaced with an alternative.
So obviously, it's a bad thing.  The fewer software that depends on it,
the better --- but more and more software does.

> And still I think its important to take this upstream.

Upstream, from the users point of view, are the makers of the
distribution in the first place.  I can't very well make a bug report
against systemd directly because Debian has decided to support it, can
I.  That's not a problem of systemd.

To get involved with everything seems to have been a design decision of
systemd.  What do you expect will happen when I make a bug report
directly against systemd, explaining them that it's broken by design?

Or should I make a bug report against the X server because it depends on
systemd?  Or the other way round?  Or perhaps against cups instead?

> Or to *help*. Make a logind that does not depend on systemd. Offer it to the 
> upstreams that need it.

I'm sure it would be ignored or rejected --- even if I had the knowledge
to make anything like that and was able to keep up with what other ppl
are doing.

>> Experiencing that the devs of systemd refuse to fix their
>> misunderstanding of what "disabled" means, looking at the poor
>> documentation of systemd and having found it ridiculously troublesome to
>> accomplish a very simple task --- i. e. getting squid-2.7 started and
>> shut down correctly --- is enough for me to utterly dislike it.
>
> I was able to get atop and atopacctd started just fine with systemd service 
> files in preparation for atop 2.1 debian package (which will also have init 
> scripts). I had some specialized questions and was answered that just nice on 
> IRC on debian-systemd channel.

I never bothered to ask because nobody on the fedora-users list would
have known anyway, or if, they wouldn't have answered.

I didn't have any specialised questions, either.  I simply wanted squid
to be started and stopped correctly.  With sysv init, that would have
been really easy without asking anyone.

So where's the advantage of systemd when you want to have a daemon
started and stopped?

>> Other issues have been pointed out in the discussion here and
>> otherwhere, and I'm finding them much worse.
>
> Actually I raised the resistance and opposotion against systemd issue on 
> upstream mailing list, as I believe there its much more useful than here:
>
> [systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of polarity and 
> resistance
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023290.html

And what was the answer?  That they don't care?

> So my challenge to you and all others who dislike things about systemd:
>
> Voice your concerns upstream. systemd-devel is a mailinglist anyone can 
> subscribe to.

Another mailing list is just what I need ;)

You know, I don't care about systemd.  Debian shouldn't use and
shouldn't support it other than as a choice for those who would like to
use it.

When the makers of systemd finally fix the bug with their
misunderstanding of what "disabled" means, I'd take that for a good sign
and might be willing to talk to them.

> For it to be most effective: Be polite, be gentle, but also be clear, 
> descriptive and detailed with your concerns. Give concrete examples.
>
>
> So my challenge is to you:
>
> *Act* for change.
>
> Instead of just venting your frustration here, which will do nothing, 
> absolutely and utterly nothing for any change! But basically the opposite, the 
> more energy you put into venting engaging here in a ton of threads, the less 
> energy you will have to bring forth change.

Why would you expect that anything would change?  My time would be spent
much better looking for an alternative.  The only reason I'm using
Debian again is because I couldn't get xen to work with anything but
Debian.  I kicked out Debian when they left the users stranded with
their stupid brokenarch.  Debian isn't going to make its way on my
desktop again.

As to systemd, I'm sure that its makers are aware of the issues it
has. They probably have been told over and over again.  If they aren't
aware of them yet, it won't change anything to tell them.

I still make bug reports or feature requests towards emacs because the
devs are somewhat responsive.  I'm not making bug reports for Fedora
because Fedora won't fix them anyway.  I rarely make bug reports for
Debian because they tend to be either ignored or not to be fixed.  I
would make bug reports for i3 if I was still using it because the devs
are pretty responsive.  The systemd ppl even deny fixing bugs that are
very easy to fix, so I don't make bug reports for systemd.  I never
found a bug in fvwm or exim, and if I did, I'd make a bug report and see
what happens ...

Feel free to challenge the developers of systemd all you like, that
might be much more useful than challenging me.

> I bet most of those here, who criticize systemd never ever have even *tried* 
> to take any of this upstream. I am delighted to see any proof of that you did.

I could Cc their mailing list in my posts here.  Others could do the
same, and the discussion would be carried over :)

> Just really important: Watch your tone. If you are disrepectful, then chances 
> are that you will be ignored. And IMHO *rightfully* so.

I'm not disrespectful.  I'm aware that native English speakers tend to
be so overly polite that I find it rather sickening at times.  That's
some sort of a cultural problem they have --- or a problem I have.  I
can't fix this problem, and though I'm inclined to respect that this
problem exists, I'm not willing to bend too much to accomodate them.
They can just say what they want to say and respect that this problem
exists just like I do.


-- 
Knowledge is volatile and fluid.  Software is power.
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