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Re: Firmware stuff - was systemd fight



On Lu, 03 mar 14, 13:56:45, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> Apart from the systemd fight stuff, I am wondering, in the context
> of the above message content, why a spearate firmware distribution
> of Debian Linux, needs to exist, rather than the firmware being
> included in the offical Debian version.

http://www.debian.org/social_contract
Important are specifically point 1. (of course) and DFSG 2., since for 
most firmware the source is not available.
 
> Also, and I do not know how applicable this is, to what is
> happening, I wonder why Debian does not provide backward
> compatibility with previous versions of Debian; why provision is not
> made, to allow software that runs on Debian 5, to run on Debian 6
> and Debian 7.

Because this quickly becomes a maintenance nightmare. This is just my 
rough understanding, but I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong:

1. freeze the "base" system (system libraries and so)
This is what Microsoft has been doing with XP. This seamed to work well 
for a while, except that at some point, no matter how many Service Packs 
they applied to it, the OS was simply not be able to cope with the 
changes around it. Eventually software programmers will want to use new 
features of their languages and libraries, but over time this becomes 
increasingly difficult and even impossible. And let's not forget about 
deep (possible security related) bugs in the underlying system that just 
can't be fixed by simple patches that don't affect the applications on 
top.

2. Keep multiple versions of libraries around
Debian does that to some extent, but (depending on the library and how 
the upstream developers handle changes to it) it quickly becomes too 
difficult to maintain. The amount of maintenance work needed is likely 
to increase geometrically or even exponentially with the number of 
concurrent versions, and don't forget that the maintainer most likely 
already has 3 (three) versions to care about: oldstable, stable and 
testing/sid.

3. Extend the support times for a release
This is not really a solution, because at some point you will just end 
up with 1., but if you're "lucky" this will give the developers of the 
old software to migrate to the newer libraries, or the need will just go 
away (as per your example below, the hardware gets replaced).

> As a single example, I have a multifunction printer, of which, the
> multifunctionality worked with Debian 5. Now, it is only a laser
> printer, running with Debian 6 - to use it to scan, I have to scan
> to a USB drive, and then copy the files to the computer, as Debian 6
> (and, I believe, similarly, Debian 7) does not provide for the
> device to wotk with it, other than using a printer driver that is
> not for the particular model range, and, losing all other interfaced
> functionality.

Based on this I'm guessing the MFP needs proprietary closed source 
software provided by the manufacturer, but not updated for current Linux 
releases. Of course, the manufacturer wants you to buy new hardware, not 
keep using the old one, even if it still suits your needs.

Given enough cooperation by the manufacturer you would be using your 
printer with current software. Worst case you could hire someone to do 
it for you.

I strongly advise that on your next buy (not necessarily MFPs) you also 
consider how well that device is supported with Linux. Bonus if the 
manufacturer contributes to that support. If enough of us are doing the 
same it might eventually open the eyes of manufacturers towards the 
benefits of FLOSS, etc.

> Surely, it must be possible, to provide backward compatibility, to
> allow software that ran on earlier versions of Debian, to run on a
> current stable version?

A chroot might be possible, but please start a new thread for this 
problem. Beware of the XY problem[1], i.e. I believe the correct 
question in your case is:

    How can I use the scan capabilities of device foo with recent 
    Debian?

[1] http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=542341
 
> "So once you do know what the question actually is,
>  you'll know what the answer means."
> - Deep Thought,
>   Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
>   "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
>   A Trilogy In Four Parts",
>   written by Douglas Adams,
>   published by Pan Books, 1992

Could you please reduce the number of lines in your .sig? Up to 4 lines 
would be nice. You could strip the chapter and book number as well as 
the publisher, these are not really useful/necessary. Besides, you can 
go for (slightly) longer lines, like e.g. 72 characters or so.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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