Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian
On 9/21/2014 1:12 AM, Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
>> aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in
>> Jessie.
>
> You can start by reading why I voted for systemd:
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708#3661
>
> You would also do well to read the statements by the other committee
> members.
>
I have. And I disagree with many of the statements made, for the same
reasons that have been raised here.
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Bob Proulx wrote:
>> For one by closing bugs without fixing them. As users we are always
>> admonished to file bugs. But whether those bugs will be acknowledge
>> and handled appropriately depends upon the project. My experience is
>> that if it is systemd that the bug will not be handled nicely.
>
> This is because of a combination of not enough volunteers to handle the
> bugs, and the bludgeoning of people working on systemd in general as
> evidenced on this very mailing list. Package maintainers are only human,
> after all.
>
Not having enough people to handle bugs is NOT a reason for closing
them. The bugs have not gone away. And it only adds to the perception
that DDs don't care about the users.
>> Eventually Ben Hutchings got involved, reopened the bug, and objected
>> to the kernel maintainers choices being overridden. And therefore it
>> was eventually fixed. But if he had not gotten involved I am sure it
>> would not have been fixed since it had not been in spite of multiple
>> reports.
>
> Yes, that bug could have been handled better. It was eventually resolved
> thanks in no small part to the willingness of Ben Hutchings to bring
> forward the precise technical issues with the overriding of the default
> kernel sysrq mask by systemd. That's the sort of healthy communication
> between a user of systemd (Ben) and the maintainers of systemd in
> Debian that we all would do well to emulate. [Even though Ben is a
> Debian Developer, he has no special powers regarding this particular bug
> than anyone reading this has.]
>
Yes, Ben had to force the issue for DDs to FINALLY take care of the
problem. The issues had been brought forward before, but until Ben got
involved, the DDs just dismissed the issue - or at least that's the way
it appears. A perfect example of WHY users don't feel they are being
listened to.
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2014, lee wrote:
>> Try to provide a Debian package and you'll see that it is so
>> ridiculously difficult that it is virtually impossible.
>
> Anyone who is interested in providing Debian packages can contact myself
> or debian-mentors@lists.debian.org; there lots of people are interested
> in getting new packagers involved in Debian.
>
> See https://www.debian.org/devel/join/newmaint for details.
>
I'm not sure about you, but the people I know who are technically
qualified to help are too busy with their own work. Most of us are
independent consultants and already work 60+ hours per week.
>> Try to help by providing translations, and you'll find it's impossible
>> because there's nowhere and no one to offer such service.
>
> Debian's website, installer, and many parts of the software that Debian
> provides are all translated. See
> https://www.debian.org/international/l10n/ for example.
>
>> What I don't understand is that criticism and other forms of speaking
>> up cannot be considered as a form of contribution.
>
> Constructive criticism is often a useful contribution. Destructive
> criticism, much less so.
>
> Disagree all you want, but don't malign others when you do so. (Or at
> least, don't do it on Debian communication infrastructure.)
>
People resort to destructive actions when they feel their constructive
actions are not being heard and responded to. It's human nature and has
been happening for millennia. If you don't want destructive actions,
you need to respond to the constructive actions.
Jerry
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