Re: ANDROID (back to the OQ)
On Thursday, October 31, 2013 02:56:21 PM ken wrote:
> On 10/31/2013 02:02 PM Beco wrote:
> > On 31 October 2013 13:12, ken <gebser@mousecar.com
> >
> > <mailto:gebser@mousecar.com>> wrote:
> > Alex,
> >
> > As you can see (from this long conversation), there are a variety of
> > interpretations of what "free" means and its value to the end user.
> > Getting back to your original concerns, here are some observations
> > I've made about android which indicate to me that it's not free.
> >
> > When you buy a phone with android on it, you don't have root access
> > to the system. You're just a regular user. Yes, you can root the
> > phone, but then you invalidate the warrantee, from what I
> > understand, both the software and hardware warrantees. So if
> > something fails on your phone, the company whom you bought it from
> > won't provide support. If something breaks (whether it's software
> > or hardware), you're on your own. There are some android-specific
> > lists which could be helpful.
> >
> > [cut]
> >
> >
> > Hello Ken,
> >
> > I agree with you in all the topics bellow (the [cut]) but this one above.
> >
> > The fact that you cant be root doesn't add to Android not being FOSS.
> >
> > Lets say, for example, that you create an "enterprise" that makes
> > software (and hardware, to be more close to the example. Suppose you
> > build a small computer using go'old Z80 processor. The motherboard isn't
> > that big. You call it Z80-Alive! )
> >
> > Now, you sell this machines in your community (school, church, whatever)
> > with a support contract, and state: You'll be THE only sysadmin, you'll
> > have root access and buyers will be a regular users. As long as buyers
> > don't try to gain root access, you'll give support to software and
> > hardware.
> >
> > In some enterprises, if you try to get root access, you may be fired! :)
> > But Z80-Alive!, as someone buy the piece of hardware and you are just
> > helping out, the buyer can't (won't) be fired, just lose warranty.
> >
> > Well, for me, this enterprise can't be called "not free" based only on
> > that.
> >
> > I agree with the other topics in your email: closed softwares installed
> > without your agreement, and other stuffs (closed hardware, drivers,
> > etc). But to isolate the "feature" -->become root<--, suppose this
> > enterprise will only install FOSS, will only use public domain hardware,
> > and ask you if you are ready for an update before pushing it to your Z80
> > machine.
> >
> > Avoiding users to become root is just a policy matter of an
> > organization, in which you are part.
> >
> > Of course you can become root anyway and void warranty. That is not bad.
> > That is just an weighted conscious option.
> >
> > My best,
> > Beco.
>
> Beco,
>
> This could get us into another abstract ontological discussion about
> what constitutes FOSS and how to define it... a sort of discussion I
> don't really care to engage in right now. I'll just say that, in your
> example, perhaps the machine is free for you, but not free to those you
> sell it to. And at work I might have root access to a FOSS system
> running a webserver, but visitors to that website don't. True, this
> doesn't mean that it's not FOSS. But I own the system, the visitors
> don't. If someone else at work has root access to a machine and I'm
> just the DBA and don't have root access, true, it's still FOSS; if
> something's not right with the system, the sysadmin can change it
> (because that's his job); but he doesn't have to beg the whim of the
> owner or vendor of proprietary software. So the distinction between
> FOSS and proprietary remains.
>
> In the case of android, I've paid for the hardware and for someone to
> install and support the software and provide updates. Vendors don't
> advertise the fact at all that you don't get root access and that,
> actually, other unseen people are controlling your phone. And that's
> what it really comes down to-- who has control. And this is a prime
> condition for FOSS, that *you* have full control of something you
> bought, not someone else.
>
> It's also true that I could root my phone and accept that I've voided
> the warrantee. But part of the purchase price I paid for the phone
> includes support and the reasonable guarantee that the hardware won't
> fail in the first year (or whatever the term paid for). So by rooting
> my android, by simply taking control of something I paid for, I'm losing
> something else I paid for. With FOSS, I think we could agree, this sort
> of conundrum doesn't arise.
In the US, the Magnusson-Moss act *may* act to invalidate such warrantee
denials; 15-USC2302(c) is the specific section:
-----
Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by
Commission
No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied
warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such
product, any article or service (other than article or service provided
without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand,
trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may
be waived by the Commission if—
(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will
function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in
connection with the warranted product, and
(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest. The
Commission shall identify in the Federal Register, and permit public comment
on, all applications for waiver of the prohibition of this subsection, and
shall publish in the Federal Register its disposition of any such application,
including the reasons therefor.
-----
Generally, a manufacturer must prove that aftermarket parts caused a failure.
They cannot blanketly prohibit the use of aftermarket parts and supplies
unless they provide their required parts and supplies for free. That is, if
you use a proper aftermarket oil in your engine and the engine fails, the
automaker must prove that that 3rd-party oil caused the failure. And an
automaker cannot void your entire warrantee just because you installed an
aftermarket stereo. This can easily be extended to smart phones. The
manufacturer cannot void your entire warrantee just because you installed some
3rd-party software; they have to prove that that software caused the smart
phone to fail.
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