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Code of conduct (was ... Re: need help on using ffmpeg for video grab)

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 03:36:10PM +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> On Mon, 21 May 2012 02:49:34 +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:
> point because if so, we have to stop accepting posts asking how does Mutt 
> work ...

Good luck with answering that question. Seriously, questions like that
should be directed to Eric Raymond's ramblings:

> you proposing we reach that extreme? Come on...

Extreme? No, but consider each post on its merits.

> > Why do think there is:
> > https://lists.ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-user/
> > http://www.mutt.org/mail-lists.html
> > 
> > etc ... etc ... etc ...
> Those lists are aimed for users who need "specific" assistance not for 
> common questions that can be easily solved here by other users who do 
> know how the application works.

Sorry, I don't see it that way. I don't see debian-user as <italic>the first
"port of call" and if you don't get any help ***THEN*** google and try
to find out where the ***ACTUAL*** place to get support is.</italic>

> > Well use your common sense. 
> I try doing so, all the time. But reading comments (like this of yours) 
> is what makes me wonder if people here is going crazy or what :-)

LOL, thinking of Manuel, pronounced "Manwell" by John Cleese, in Fawlty
Towers; but I think it was banned in Spain?

"Reading" any document and gleaning the meaning from it ***DOES***
involve common sense. Remember, the person writing is probably having
trouble conveying their thoughts into words so as to convey the meaning
of what they are ***TRYING*** to say.

> > If it looks like the problem is Debian related, i.e. the way the
> > program interacts with Debian -- then sure, It is fine and very
> > relevant to this list.
> And what's a "Debian related" question? FFmpeg is not interacting with 

I can't easily answer that question, I guess it comes with experience.

Distribution specific questions are obviously Debian related. Questions
where you'd get the same  answer, no matter what Distribution you were
using is not a "Debian related" question. Agreed?

> your Debian system? Neither xawtv? What's then the goal of having a OS if 
> you can't run an application of your liking?

Well, it does involve quite a bit of work from the user. If the
"application of your liking" works OOTB then I consider it a
coincidence. Usually, to get it working to "your liking", involves a bit
of research and messing around with settings, config files, etc.

> questions when they're not directly related to the functioning of the 
> operating system? That's simply absurd and of course that's not what the 
> Code of Conduct for this mailing list wants to promulgate.

That is not how I read it. In fact I'd have thought the opposite. My
reading of it suggests that it is worded so as to discourage "questions
when they're not directly related to the functioning of the operating

> > If it looks like a problem with the usage of the actual program, then
> > the user is better posting his/her question on the actual support list.
> Of course it can be *better*, but not *a must*. There's a slight 

I'm aware of that. Where is there "a must" in the above paragraph?

Same as: posting in html is not a must, it is to be discouraged and some
people even answer such posts, but you are "better off" not posting in
html. If it is multpart-alternate then mutt displays it as plain text.
If it displays as html, I delete it pronto! Hence they, are *better off*
posting in plain-text or they *must* post in plain-text depends on
whether they want an answer from me.

> difference between the two stanzas. You can _suggest_ a user to ask in 
> another specialized mailing list to get more answers but you can't tell 
> the user _this is not the correct_ mailing list for such questions.

OK. You are correct. It was the wrong way to say "that you'd be better
off asking your question on a (the?) ffmpeg user list."

> > Why?

[the user is better posting his/her question on the actual support

> > 	* That is where the developers and users "hang out".
> Not always. Most devels stay-away of user-targeted mailing list and read 

In fact, my experience has indicated the opposite. It is
less likely that any Tom, Dick, or Harry will get away with posting a
down right wrong  or misleading answer. Because ---> "That is where the 
developers and users "hang out"" 

> only those with -devel tag to avoid losing their time (much noise). 
> Anyway, this is not a question for a developer but for plain users.

Yeah, but my point was that if a developer sees a question it *may* 
help improve the program.

> >       * Therefore you are more likely to find someone who can help. 
> I fail to see how... devels are not usually very patient when it comes to 
> answer user's questions ;-)
> >       * The question, itself,
> > 	can help quide the development:
> > 	   1) Is the documentation adequate?
> Being ffmpeg, not always. Docs and samples are scarce and not easy to 
> understand, it's a program plenty of options.

Yeah, but it is well documented!! There is a difference! There is a
difference between hand-holding tutorials and good documentation.

Have a look at fvwm for example. Not my idea of fun reading the man
page, but there is no way you can say that it is not well documented.

> > 	   2) Is there a bug in the program?
> Irrelevant for this subject.

Pardon? The point 2) is regarding "where the developer sees the
question, and could trigger that thought in the developers mind.
> > 	* Allows the "site:" search term to be more informative. 
> >       * Probably other reasons which don't immediately come to me.
> Posting to the program mailing list is something completely up to the 
> user, you cannot enforce his/her decision.

No, of course not. "You can take a horse to water but you can't make it
drink" is an old proverb which springs to mind. But hopefully, outlining
some of the benefits (which is what I was endeavouring to do with that list
above) will be enough for "them to see the light". Of course, they can
still choose to do as they please. E.g That has determined whether
murderers have either gone to the electric chair or the asylum.¹

> >> package? With all the due respects, that's nonsense.
> > 
> > Au contraire, it is perfectly sensible.
> "Sensible"? Not for the user who needs help with a Debian package.

But pointing them to the "best" place for help, is helping them.
Ignoring them or guessing the answer is not helping them.

Honestly, how many ffmpeg user experts would you expect on the
debian-user list compared to the number of ffmpeg user experts on an
ffmpeg user list?
> > That is indeed unfortunate. :( Hopefully, you can now?
> No, sorry. I think you simply overreacted in your first post.

Yeah I admit it, but I still think my reasoning was sound, it was the
implementation which was poor. The first post being in response to the
OP where I said "Wrong List!".

But it was you *who* gave the impression that any question was welcome
on this list, with your response: "No its not". It was *that* response
which triggered all this verbiage.

¹Not the best analogy, because ignorance of the law won't get you off,
but in regards to the interpretation of the law I can't really think of
a better one. Also there is that third variable "Lawyers!", where if you 
have enough money and/or are a celebrity changes things completely.

"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

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