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Re: My first message... more of a mad mans rant...

I hope you didn't type up all that, at least on the topics I raised... it was a waste...

My topics were..
1) Lets try a version of Debian Etch without the binary firmware
2) Lets add dreamlinux and sidux to the list on debian.org and p.s. have a little look
3) Lets try a medium ground between stable and testing.

It wasn't about Ubuntu vs Debian...

Sorry if it came across like that, but lets face it that argument is done to death.


Steven Maddox

Cyorxamp's Personal Website

Damon L. Chesser wrote:

hmmm?  Where to start?

Alpha release: We have that, it is called testing. Packages are "dumped" into Sid, after a period of time with out bug reports, it is moved into testing (10 days?) automatically. Alpha, pre-release canadate : alpha stage; a stage when it is being actively debugged (wikipedia). If you think you have issues running testing, try grabbing an alpha release of ANY other distro. Ubuntu: It is called marketing. They rule (from a market perspective). Mr. Shuttleworth is a smart, smart man. Make a desktop distro, make it work, get it out there, make it simple, make it easy, make it free of cost, THEN make a server version w/support for the enterprise. Every CTO has heard of ubuntu, so when one guy says, "Lets try Ubuntu server" they will not freak out. Who is marketing Debian. Does Debian have Community Coordinators volunteers? Search IRC. People LOVE Ubuntu (not me, btw, to many "arbitrary" file location changes, but I would recommend it to ANY new user). It is called VALUE ADDED. This is HOW RMS says you are supposed to make money off of FOSS. Charge for support. Closed source drivers. Yawn. Might as well argue for the Prolotariet to to rise up against the yoke of the elite. Been tried, old news. People just don't care, they want their "thingy" to work. Ubuntu just makes it available (and NOT off of the non-free repos), just like you can get for Debain. "Hate" Ubuntu makes no sense. Take the FOSS, modify the FOSS, give it to someone to use, that is the definition of Free. Why get bent out of shape over using the FREE part of the FOSS? Out market them, you will win. Ignore the Market, you will not "win". MS got to be number 1 not by having a superior product, but by better marketing. Canonical is in the business of MAKING money, not telling customers what they can or can not do. Does Suse make declaration it derived from slackware? No one cries foul over that omission. No body cares Ubuntu is derived from Debian ( well except for Debian devs and some fans such as myself). There is starting to be some significant diversion between Ubuntu and Debian in file system setup and packages used (for example, no inittabb in ubuntu). We shall see if they can keep up the momentum, but I think they can and will. For the most part Linux now means Ubuntu and Gnome ( I speak from the "cluser" perspective, not the reality). If you want to change this, YOU MUST market Debian (and Debian does not like to market it's self.) and you MUST make the "cluser" hardware work. You must NOT make the clueless user jump through hoops, dig through documentation, search the web, all just to make his wireless work or his webpage to display. If you have ever gotten a call from a customer asking "where did I save that file I downloaded" then you KNOW this. People, all people (aside from hobbiest) want to USE the computer, not make it work. Ubuntu mostly has solved this issue.

Understand, I use Debian Sid. I am NOT a Ubuntu fan. I do use Ubuntu now and again, just to check out the evolution. But I make my Debian do what I want. Mr. Cluser does not know how, does not care, will not put the time in and will go and find something else that "works". To rant against Ubuntu or "non-free" is nonsensical. It only works from an intellectual perspective of therory. But like most academic towers, falls down quickly when faced with reality. Coders need to eat. Manufactures want to recapture capital investment. End users want the new flashy hardware thing because it fills a need they perceived. OS must work on these perceived needed devices or face becoming irelevant. The OS can not tell the user what they may use or how they may use it (hmm, sounds like DRM and secure computing). Now YOU may not use these devices and that is YOUR vote. Most will vote differently then you. Any OS the dares to tell the customer/end user how to do it, what to do, what you can not do faces market loss. Windows Vista is a case in point, vs XP.

Debian is a good, stable, simple to install, simple to modify OS that fits most, if not all uses (It is The Universal Operating System). What it lacks that Ubuntu has is two fold: marketing and capital. Remember the fuss made when some devs where paid to push testing to stable? Oh the humanity! Of course, if YOU were not paid, it would make hard feelings. Fix those two things. Do not pin your dreams of domination on FREE. With Debian, this will not happen. To fixated on FREE. That is the choice of the devs. They do what they want, because they want to. They want Freedom. They lose The Market share as a result, but that is THEIR choice, not yours or mine. We can only choose to use it or not. For now, I choose to use it and will do so for as long as it works for MY needs.

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