On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 11:28 -0500, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote: > On 05/06/2008, thveillon.debian <thveillon.debian@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Testing > [snip] > > has always been at least as reliable as Ubuntu. > > > That's not saying much. ;-) > > But seriously, people, testing is not stable. If you like bugs and can > live with bugs, then use testing. If you don't like bugs, then run > stable. I believe that the problem is that many Debian users have > grown used to bugs and know how to fix them or work around them when > they come up, *but* that doesn't mean testing should be Debian's > business card. Stable is Debian's final product, testing is always a > work in progress. As for desktop use, depends on the user. If you're > used to things breaking (and for better or for worse, all the Windows > users in the world seem to be used to this), then go ahead and use > testing. If you don't like it, then don't use it. I use testing and > can mostly get by with the breakage, but my mom who recently has > mastered how to use a mouse to point-and-click; she gets stable, because I > don't want her computer breaking and having her conclude that "this > thing you installed on my computer sucks, nothing works." > > etch installed mostly ok on my mom's machine, but I do admit that I > had to jump through many hoops to install it. That's ok. I am an admin > for her, and the beauty of etch is that so far, I've only had to admin > that machine *once*. She doesn't know her own password, and I don't > think she has a need to. With etch she can browse the internet, read > those blasted .doc and .ppt files her friends email her, and she can > use her iPod with Rhythmbox (which she prefers to iTunes' horrid setup > and intrusive marketing). More than this, this particular desktop user > does not need. > > And I run testing, and in recent memory, I have ran across the > following bugs: > > - Battery monitor cannot read my battery, fixed with workaround > (#42305) > - Gnome keyboard switcher no longer honours my alt-capslock key > for switching keyboard layouts (can't find a bug and aren't sure > how to report it). > - Octaviz segfaults in 64 bit arch (#480431) > - OpenGL got broken on many games, fixed within a month or so (#470084) > - Packaging glitch with compiz where conflicting versions of > packages can be installed in testing (#483819) > > just to name a few, or the ones that I noticed the most. I am pretty > sure I'm not the only one running across this many bugs. testing > breaks. That's what it is. Breaking may be good enough for most Debian > users, but it shouldn't be the standard, and it is not the way > software is supposed to be. The biggest harm MSFT products have done > for us is to foster the perception that the natural state of software > is breakage. Debian stable aims to fix that perception. > > My bottom line: if you recommend testing to others, do not deceive > them, and tell them to expect breakage. If they don't like that, tell > them to use etch. If etch doesn't recognise their newer hardware, then > help them out with backporting and such. But don't unilaterally > recommend testing to all users. > > - Jordi G. H. Well said, agreed. I can not count the number of times windows admins (I am in IT) were playing with Linux at home and they start telling me about all the strange things that Mandriva/FCX/hot-new-flashy-distro-name-here did and how they could not fix it or get .doc/flash/java/wine/pdf/DRM to work or the package management would puke. When ever I suggest them to run Unstable (same as all the above in terms of "cutting edge" they would freak out. Newbs always try the latest "flashy" distro because it has to be better then the "old, stodgy Debian" and Stable was "to old". It is perfectly OK to install FC9 (it really is pretty slick) and have all kinds of breakage (I always break FC with in a week, trying to install something I want) but it is not OK to run "Unstable" because it is unstable. GRRRRRRRRR. And yet Debian is pretty damn slick out of the box, is pretty by default and if you want cutting edge, you can run it (or as a hobbyist, you might NEED to run Testing or Unstable just to install it. But I rant and digress. > > -- Damon L. Chesser damon@damtek.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/dchesser
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