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Re: Debian's progress inspite of events (was Re: Dunk-Tank and the DD strike)

On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 07:50 -0300, D G Teed wrote:
> On 3/19/07, Greg Folkert <greg@gregfolkert.net> wrote:
>         Of course, you could point out that about 60% of existing
>         popular
>         distributions are originally derived and modified from Debian.
> I spent all of last summer trying to educate the managers.  I've given
> up.  They won't read or listen.  They have heard that Linux users tend
> to be emotional fans of their particular distro and can present any
> information to back up their favorite.  One particular person has the 
> personality of Captain Kirk.  But he is one that won't listen to his
> Spock.

Seems like they are "emotional" as well.

> It is pointless to say something like "it is straightforward if you
> know how", when the there is nothing hinted within the installer to
> tell that user of the alternates as they smash into the problem.
> (Hint: put a message into the installer scenario where there is no
> hard drive to install onto).  My manager didn't want any hand holding
> to evaluate Debian.  He installed it on a notebook, had problems and 
> thought it proved what he had read about Debian being old.

You gave him Sarge, right? Have him do a straight install of WindowsXP
with no other CD. Watch him crash and burn as well. Or if he "excuses"
the additional drivers disk(s) required to install WindowsXP then he is
not at all "unbiased".

Also obvious, you don't know Debian well enough to realize the other
methods. The other methods I speak of, are NOT for the "unwashed masses"
coming from Pre-installed Windows. They are for people who understand
what a chroot is, or howto extract a tar file onto a new system and
properly update it and re-run a tasksel.

> You are wrong about Redhat not updating the kernel.  We had a new
> 64bit Intel machine come in a few months back.  A techie tried to
> install his standard RH 4 on it and no go.  He got the "update 4"
> version of the  installer from Redhat, and away he went.

I see, update 4 has extra drivers available because of backports to the
SAME version kernel.  Wait, RHEL4 uses which Kernel?

> For the sake of the discussion, the hardware is not uniform and the
> servers are uniquely roled (cyrus, tomcat, custom web apps, MX,
> postgres DB, etc.).

I don't care, Debian can be easily cleaned and re-deployed *WITHOUT*
being re-installed. Easily. You only have to know this. There are tools
for this.
> The first step to solving a problem is recognition that there is one,
> but I don't think we are getting that far in these exchanges.  I feel
> that Debian has more resources than any commercial distribution.  The
> number of supported platforms is one evidence of that. The number of
> developers and  users (including downstream distros) is another.  It
> is just a matter of making things a priority and deciding how and
> where to make this happen.  I'm also hinting strongly here, that
> fixing this issue would go a long way to improving  Debian's adoption
> in heavy IT centres where management has too many thumbs in the pie.
> It might even cut out the losses from people going to Ubuntu and the
> like.

Again, why do hyarge deployments choose Debian? Scalability and 19,000
easily available packages. Also because of cost reductions, when they
don't have the money to spend on "One Vendor Solutions" and rely on the
employees they have to do the job. Finding out that these Vendors are
just taking money.

Debian's adoption is everywhere, for a list of Debian based  distros
here is non-comprehensive list I just used on Ben Hmeda:

        Admanix, APLINUX, ASLinux, AbulEdu, Formerly Demudi now ANGULA,
        ANTEMIUM Linux, Arrabix, Augustux, Backtrack, B2D Linux, BenHUr,
        BEERnix, Biadix, BIG LINUX, Bioknoppix, BlackRhino, BRLSpeak,
        Bonzai Linux, ClusterKnoppix, Catix, CensorNet, Clusterix,
        Condorux, Corel Linux, Danix, Demolinux, DebXPde, Dizinha Linux,
        Debian JP, Debian-BR-CDD, DeveLinux, Damn Small Linux(DSL), DCC,
        ESware Linux, eduKnoppix, ERPOSS, Evinux, Euronode, Engarde,
        emdebian, Ebuntu, FAMELIX, FeatherLinux, FoRK (Vital Data
        Forensic or Rescue Kit), Freeduc-cd, Freeduc-Sup, Finnix,
        Familiar, GEOLivre Linux, Gibraltar, GNIX-Vivo, Kinneret,
        GNUstep Live, grml, GuadaLinex, Gnoppix, Hiweed Linux, Helix,
        Hikarunix, IndLinux,  Impi Linux, Julex, K-DeMar, Kaella,
        Knoppix Linux Azur, Kanotix, KlusTriX, knopILS, Knoppel,
        Knoppix64, KnoppixSTD, KNOPPIX, KnoppiXMAME, KNOSciences,
        Kurumin, Kalango Linux, Kunbuntu, KnoppMyth, LAMPPIX, LIIS
        Linux, Libranet, LinEspa, Linspire, Linux-YeS, Linux Live Game
        Project, Linux Loco, LinuxDefender Live! CD, Linux Router
        Project, LiVix, Local Area Security Linux (L.A.S.), Luinux, Luit
        Linux, Linex, Linuxin, Libranet(though now part of Mandriva),
        MAX: Madrid Linux, MediainLinux, MEPIS, Metadistro-Pequelin,
        MIKO GNYO/Linux, MoLinux, Munjoy Linux, Morphix, MeNTOPPIX,
        Nature's Linux, NordisKnoppix, NepaLinux, NUbuntu,
        OpenGroupware.org Knoppix CD, OverclockIX, Oralux, PAIPIX,
        ParallelKnoppix, Parsix GNU/Linux, Penguin Sleuth Bootable CD,
        PHLAK, PilotLinux, PingOO, Progeny Linux, Prosa, Quantian, RAYS
        LX, Salvare, Santa Fe Linux, Slavix, Slix, Slo-Tech Linux,
        Soyombo Mongolian Linux, SphinxOS, Stonegate, Stromix
        Tecnologies' Storm Linux, Symphony OS, Skolelinux, Tablix on
        Morphix, TelemetryBox, Tilix Linux, TupiServer Linux, Ubuntu,
        User Linux, Ubuntu Lite X-evian, Xandros, Xfld, Xarnoppix,
        Xebian, Zen Linux, ZoneCD, Zopix, zUbuntu

You might want to understand the playing field before trying to play
greg, greg@gregfolkert.net

Novell's Directory Services is a competitive product to Microsoft's
Active Directory in much the same way that the Saturn V is a competitive
product to those dinky little model rockets that kids light off down at
the playfield. -- Thane Walkup

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