Re: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?
On Friday 26 August 2005 06:33 pm, charlie wrote:
<Sorry for the long quote, it's been mangled by some other e-mail programs,
but I refer to this and feel it has to be left in.>
> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:22:33 -0400
>
> Hal used the keyboard to craft this:
> >|On Thursday 25 August 2005 11:28 pm, Wulfy wrote:
> >|> Antonio Rodriguez wrote:
> >|> >These people are the guides. If they thought as the rest of the
>
> guided
>
> >|> >humans, the future would be blackly dark, as when under a
> >|> >thunderstorm. They have created Debian by not listening to the
> >|> >multitudes. The multitudes lack vision.
> >|>
> >|> When this vision is shared openly, joyfully and with respect to all,
>
> it
>
> >|> is a beautiful thing. But when it's shared with snide remarks, put
> >|> downs and arrogance, how is it different from any other Big Brother
> >|> bullying? Alienating the people you are trying to help will not make
> >|> people understand.
> >|
> >|True guides don't need to share with snide remarks. As I said to
>
> someone else
>
> >|in an off-list reply:
> >|
> >|Most, if not all of the people I'm referring to -- the ones that seem
>
> to love
>
> >|to patronize others who aren't using the same "uber-geek" programs and
> >|systems they are (I guess that makes them feel superior or something),
>
> are
>
> >|not the creators. It is merely those who want to piss on the local
>
> trees to
>
> >|say to everyone else, "Hey, I'm an uber-alpha-geek, look at me with
>
> awe. Be
>
> >|as impressed with me as I am with myself."
> >|
> >|The forum then, in a discussion like this, becomes nothing more than a
>
> pissing
>
> >|contest with some trying to prove their superiority by throwing at the
>
> rest
>
> >|of us the most excrement.
> >|
> >|Hal
>
> Do you really believe that?
Yes, I do.
> I think it's all about whether you want to have the work done for you, and
> be without the choice to do it as you want. Some want to be led, which is
> fine, but if you would like a different view from the following dog, you
> can step to one side and pioneer a new path or take the lead.
Thank you for a perfect example of what I'm talking about. It's not about
leadership. I will agree that some people like to have a tool perform
different functions. There are reasons for using a philips head and a flat
blade, for example, but to put it in patronizing terms (like "the following
dog"), or emphasize one view ("pioneer a new path") shows that you value one
point of view more highly than the other, and actually look at one view with
disdain.
Again, that is exactly what I'm talking about, so please, put it back in, zip
up your pants, and stop trying to prove whos' is bigger. It really doesn't
matter
I work on a computer in 2 modes (3, if you count the need to play a game now
and then). When I'm programming, I get down and dirty. I make heavy use of
the console. When I'm writing, I want all the programs to do as much work as
they can for me. That lets me concentrate on my writing and what I'm
writing, not about things like setting margins or playing other control
setting games. I've found a tremendous sense of arrogance and
self-importance in people that use the more detailed programs, as if they
have a higher IQ, know more, or are more able than others. That is
especially showing through in a discussion like this, or in statements like
yours where people keep indicating their program does it right and others
don't, or that people that do things one way are pioneers and others aren't.
When I first switched to Linux, I asked on many lists about word processors
and got the same reactions from many people: if you don't want to worry about
those settings, you're a wuss, and you shouldn't even be using a computer.
People use tools for different reasons. I just happen to be someone who
believes computers are great tools to help increase one's productivity.
People should be able to use the tool that works best for them, and it is
selfish, self centered, arrogant, patronizing and denigrating to insult
another person's choice for their tools. The funny thing is, to an observer,
the insulter really isn't hurting the insultee as much as he is showing that
he is all that I mentioned in the previous sentence.
> It seems it has nothing to do with being geeky, I certainly am not, and no
> one knows it all. That's why Linux, put it out there for everyone to adapt,
> modify, improve or wreck, you choose. Linux, the choice system, and Debian
> the most of all from what I can see.
Debian is a good system, and it many users in Debian-Land are much more
stubborn than in other areas. There is definitely a stronger smug air of
self-superiority among Debian users than any I have encountered from other
distros. Most of it is undeserved because what distro one uses has no effect
on how good the person using it is. That means that even though Debian is
just about the best out there doesn't mean all who use it have a right to
boast.
> It appears to me that you are bringing other things into this vote.
Nope. I don't want a vote, think the idea of calling for one is a waste of
time, and wish everyone would just put theirs back in their pants and stop
this pissing contest. Debian is Debian. The methods don't change, the
mailing list doesn't change, and anyone expecting any person in Debian who
makes decisions to change something like how the headers are handled on this
mailing list might as well settle down and wait for hell to freeze over,
since that will happen first.
> Just enjoy Linux in all its flavours,
That is my point, but when an argument like this comes up, it becomes clear
we're dealing with zealots with as narrow a vision as many religious zealots.
Hal
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