RE: Why mailing-lists? Usenet have been invented, I hear. ;-)
well since you want to be rude and immature i'll respond in likewise - go
fuck yourself. It's people like you that piss newbies off and turn them
away from linux and open source. You have major attitude. Most probably a
14 year old looking at your choice of l33t etc as words.
For that matter I wasn't knocking the debian system, I was having a go at a
few users who were plain downright rude. And at the general elitism that
i've personally found from a large % of linux users elsewhere (and that
appeared to initially be the case on the debian lists here).
Thankfully most of the people who have voiced their opinion on this subject
have not been rude like yourself. In fact several have agreed with my
voiced opinion. There's an old saying son and it's "they can't all be
wrong".
Oh and I don't being implied as being a moron either mate. Oh and if you'd
bothered to read and comprehend my original post - with the Suse issue it
was purely an example of the poor linux support (and I had paid for support
by purchasing their product). Every single person that I personally know
who works in the IT industry (10+) have been disgusted with the lack of
support by Suse. My reference to them was an example. You'd also realised
that I had in fact down research with my Suse problem (and I typically do
this as it is the only way to learn). So please don't make assumptions
about
1. my intelligence
2. my efforts that I do make before resorting to asking for help.
Oh and if i want to quote the lyrics from a song, then that's my goddamn
right. If you don't like it tough.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Edward Guldemond [mailto:thedebategod@yifan.net]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2002 10:43 PM
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org; David Pastern
Subject: Re: Why mailing-lists? Usenet have been invented, I hear. ;-)
Sorry, couldn't stay out of this flame war, and yes, I do have my
asbestos armor on.
On Tue, Sep 10, 2002 at 11:47:38AM +1000, David Pastern wrote:
> You guys are goddamn rude. If this is linux helpfulness at it's best god
> help linux and open source. To quote three dead trolls in a baggie' every
> os sucks.mp3:
Rudeness begets rudeness. If the person had brought constructive
criticism instead of flames, this never would have happened.
Apparently, he thinks he's a l33t d00d instead of stopping and thinking
that maybe this question has been asked before and that maybe someone
was working on it. Instead he goes and attacks the structure of the
Debian system. If he doesn't like it, he doesn't have to use it.
That's the beauty of open source. Plus, show me one major vendor that
offers all of it's technical support through Usenet. The Usenet groups
that exist for Linux are supposed to be distribution agnostic, and he
could always take his problem there.
If someone has to quote an MP3 instead of making constructive arguments,
then he needs to learn how to argue effectively.
> Please note the phrase "elitist nerdy schmucks". I've fucked around with
> Debian linux now for nearly a week, spending countless hours trying to get
> it to work and it's still rooted. MAN pages are pathetic. They're great
if
> you're a really experienced user. If not, they are just downright plain
> confusing, quite often not even touching on the subject that you want to
> know about.
Man pages are documentation. If someone tells you to RTFM, and you tell
them to STFU, then you're only exacerbating the problem. RTFM, and if
you have questions about that, then ask them about the manual. The
moment that you attack the source of your help, or the moment that you
become lame (such as asking if you can ask a question), then you're
going to be treated like you're lame. Linux is not for morons. Windows
is not for morons, but there are more morons using Windows than any
other operating system because it's 'perty'.
> Go visit a few IRC channels for help and you get rudely treated (i've
tried
> 4 different IRC servers thanks and quite politely, i've had enough). The
> RTFM attitude that most experienced linux users pervay is pathetic. And
> counter productive to open source' image. The thing is this attitude goes
> way to the top of linux developers, so it's not going to change.
You have to remember that all of us were newbies at some time. I'll be
that 95% of us have been told to RTFM. The manual is there for a
reason. Coders have better things to do than listen to someone who
hasn't been considerate enough to read the manual or check a mailing
list archive before sending 15 email messages to him telling him that
the software doesn't work. (Oh, and about 5 asking why he hasn't
responded yet because this software is 'important'.) RTFM is not a bad
thing, and it should be required. How would you like it if your heart
surgeon hadn't RTFM; would you trust him then? In my opinion, open
source will never die, it will just clean itself, like the ocean before
it, of any people that can't understand that documentation is more than
a Spanish guy named Manual, and that mailing lists are for intelligent
discussion that some random person's bitching.
Oh, and tell me about the 'top' of the Linux Developers. There is no
Linux Development team, per se. Sure, there's the kernel team, but I
haven't seen anything too nasty coming for Linus or Alan lately, and if
you emailed them for support with fdisk or wine, then you're just lame.
> I'd recently bought (yes paid money) for Suse 8 pro. I decided to trial
it
> on my laptop, Compaq Armada 1750. Eventually, I got it to work and
install.
> After contacting Suse support that is. Installation manual had nothing on
> my problem that I encountered. Google search didn't find anything (hey
i'm
> not going to search thru 25k of pages hoping to find something). Search
of
> Suse' dbase didn't find an answer. So I relied on support. Their reply
was
> cryptic to say the least. No mention of how to do it, just do this.
That's
> pathetic. And i'm paying for support! Once I finally got Suse installed
> sound was fux0red. Odd. Anyways I did check the Suse dbase and found
what
> I thought was my answer - setup settings for my very laptop for Suse 8
pro.
> I copied the settings for the soundcard to the "T". Wouldn't work. So I
> emailed Suse ( by this time i'm rather pissed off with it all) and I get
> told "sorry we don't support soundcards in basic support). Gee - get this
> guys - in any other business they'd go bust. Big time. That is PATHETIC
> support. To a "T". And the funny thing? I've had redhat 7, 7.1 and 7.2
on
> that very said laptop without a single installation issue. And i've had
> sound working on it on all occasions. Funny that Suse couldn't manage it.
Okay, why are you flaming SuSe on a Debian mailing list? Because they
told you to RTFM, and you couldn't because you were too busy telling
them that they sucked? Maybe you should have installed RedHat, copied
down the settings for the sound card, and replicated them under SuSe.
Wait, did I just give useful help?
> This is all about atttitude, and quite plainly, the attitude of most
> experienced linux users SUCKS. Badly. I'll tell you know - for every 5
> people that try linux, 3 walk away from it for these exact reasons.
Imagine
> how many people linux/open source is losing due to poor attitude. If you
> don't believe me ask newbies for their opinion on this subject. Most are
> too scared to admit it, so they keep their mouths shut. Some are
outspoken,
> like myself.
Maybe in the future they will keep their mouths shut and join a LUG or
lurk on a newsgroup or a mailing list and learn and read and grow.
That's how I learned Linux back in the days of Slackware 2.0, and that's
still how I learn Linux now. If you can't put in any time to learn,
don't bitch that things are too hard. It's like school, if you take
shortcuts, then you only short change yourself.
Oh, and don't top post. It's just rude. :-)
--
------------------------------------------
Edward Guldemond
Key fingerprint: 29FF 2969 A04E F934 3F03
4329 BC56 3AA7 2F57 6735
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