RE: Why mailing-lists? Usenet have been invented, I hear. ;-)
I wish to thank you for choosing my post on this matter to reply to - I
offer some strictly factual posting about the newsgroup access to the
contents of this mailing list, and find it quoted with a personally
emailed copy also sent, with what can politely be referred to as *an
expression of disapproval*.
Linux support is extensive for how much it (the o/s, all of the
applications, and the minutae of configuration advice) costs. That said,
you are far more likely able to speak to the actual developer of an
application here than you are on a Microsoft newsgroup.
I reviewed Kai Olsen in the archives of this list's postings, and he had
not asked any questions on the list since the start of August (where my
search started.) Not stalking him - just wondering if we had failed to
answer a question of his. His complaint, however, was that Usenet would
be a better medium than a mailing list for this. I would suggest that
among the vast majority of computer users, both mailing lists and Usenet
are something of an unknown, and the same would apply to IRC - if it
isn't the web or usual person-to-person email, it is a "Wuzzat?" type of
black cyber-magic.
The fact is that I would not recommend this forum for support to someone
that is still working on the concepts of how to start an application by
clicking on an icon. I would not recommend someone doing the System
Administrator tasks of any computer more complicated than a game console
if they haven't mastered the concept of clicking on an icon. The hype
about Linux forgets that not everyone is really versed in the details of
basic concepts of computer technology, but then, the hype around
computers in general forgets that. Debian, in turn, is more complicated
than numerous other major distributions - not because the Debian Project
has elected to be ornery, but because sometimes it is necessary to be
able to work a system at the textual configuration file level, rather
than behind abstract entities and settings that cannot be directly and
individually adjusted.
After 20 years of working with computers, including as a Systems
Programmer developing BASIC and Pascal interpreters at Watcom, I first
got around to installing Linux in 1997, with two tries at Slackware 3.0,
neither of which worked, a try with Debian GNU/Linux 1.3, which gave me
a working root account but for some reason I couldn't get user accounts
to work (and absolutely no X11), and a moderately functional RedHat 4.2
installation. I tried again in early 1998, first with Slackware 3.1,
which again failed, and then Debian GNU/Linux 1.3.1, which worked and
was able to be configured over the next few months. I had extensive
familiarity with Unix from a shell account user's perspective and much
reading about X11 (and a subscription to UnixWorld magazine.)
Things have improved since then in the usability and functionality area,
but I think it must be understood that Linux System Administration is
not for someone that has no conceptual understanding of computers,
networks, multiuser environments, servers (including particularly email
servers) and the like. If a person doesn't understand the basic
resolution settings of a graphics card (the difference between 640x480
and 1280x1024, for instance, or 4 bit versus 32 bit), they are not the
one to be configuring X11. If a person is willing to understand that
they aren't at the right point yet to "deal with the concepts involved",
and ask here (or at DebianPlanet or any of the more general Linux
information sites, or at a Linux Users Group) about what background they
need, people will definitely help them - this list is very good this
way.
That said, this is the Debian User mailing list, which is users helping
one another - not huge support departments (which if you have called
Microsoft recently, to get any information from their support department
beyond being advised how to form your search request for their online
support database ends up costing much $$$) or developers hoping to take
problems raised here and create fixes that can be passed off as new
features to re-sell the program as a *new and improved upgrade*.
When you buy a Linux distribution at your favorite software vendor, you
are not paying 1/8 to 1/5 the cost of Windows XP alone for unlimited
eternal support on all of the thousands of packages (including hundreds
of major applications such as numerous web servers, email servers,
editors, word processors, spreadsheets, etc.) included on the media in
the box. Even when you pay $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for Microsoft Office, or
vastly more for most server systems, you don't get more than basic
support for installation and standard configuration for that price.
Some people have gotten Linux that either aren't ready for it, or in
their configuration honestly don't need it. Linux is more complicated
than Windows NT/2000/XP Pro or Server in some ways, partly because of
the range of different tools to do the same task, dependent on the scale
and tastes of the the users, but also because the tools are more
directly accessible and configurable than on Microsoft or Apple
operating systems.
In terms of Kai Olsen, I don't know if that is the case - his (I'm
assuming that Danish use of Kai is male - I know two with the name Kai,
but both are Asian males, and I don't know whether it is male or female
in Danish) point was with reference to the volume of traffic on the
mailing list and how it would be better as a Usenet newsgroup, to which
I replied that it can be access that way. In terms of the posting by
David Pastern, there are difficulties that some aspects of his post
appear to indicate that he doesn't necessarily understand every last one
of the broad range of concepts involving the many aspects of systems
that can be implemented with Linux. The same can be said for pretty well
anyone - I bet Linux Torvalds doesn't necessarily understand all of the
complexities of TeX, for instance. Linus Torvalds, however, *IS* ready
for Linux, as he does know enough of most, and asks where to find the
documentation for the rest. Same thing for Richard Stallman, Eric
Raymond, and any of the other BIG names of free software.
So, David, what Debian questions do you have?
On Mon, 2002-09-09 at 21:47, David Pastern wrote:
> You guys are goddamn rude. If this is linux helpfulness at it's best god
> help linux and open source. To quote three dead trolls in a baggie' every
> os sucks.mp3:
>
> "now there's linux, or linucks I don't know how you say it, or how you
> install it, or use it or play it, or where you download it or what programs
> run, but linux or linucks don't look like much fun. however you say it,
> it's getting great press, though how it survives is anyones guess, if you
> ask me, it's a great big mess for elitist nerdy schmucks - "it's free they
> say" - if you can get it to run, the geeks say "hey that's half the fun",
> yeah but i got a girlfriend and things to get done, the linux o/s sucks, i'm
> sorry to say it, but it does."
>
> Please note the phrase "elitist nerdy schmucks". I've fucked around with
> Debian linux now for nearly a week, spending countless hours trying to get
> it to work and it's still rooted. MAN pages are pathetic. They're great if
> you're a really experienced user. If not, they are just downright plain
> confusing, quite often not even touching on the subject that you want to
> know about.
>
> Go visit a few IRC channels for help and you get rudely treated (i've tried
> 4 different IRC servers thanks and quite politely, i've had enough). The
> RTFM attitude that most experienced linux users pervay is pathetic. And
> counter productive to open source' image. The thing is this attitude goes
> way to the top of linux developers, so it's not going to change. I'll make
> a parallel here: take for instance a photography club. You get newbies all
> the time. You don't see experienced members of the photography club in my
> example back stabbing. Or being rude. Or being unhelpful. They help each
> other become better at the hobby they have chosen to pursue. Linux and open
> source is not just a o/s etc. It's a hobby. Treat it like one and have
> some respect for other users. Offer a helping hand - it's polite and it's
> good PR. If you guys want to persist in elitist attitudes, fine. In ten
> years time linux will be dead, open source will be dead and people will
> remember it all as "god they were rude elitist bastards".
>
> Technically linux is more advanced than Microsoft Windows. And yes that
> does mean a more 'advanced' user is required. And some elbow grease too.
> Fine. Most reasonablly PC literate users are prepared to put in some effort
> on their own part. I'll take one more point as an example:
>
> I'd recently bought (yes paid money) for Suse 8 pro. I decided to trial it
> on my laptop, Compaq Armada 1750. Eventually, I got it to work and install.
> After contacting Suse support that is. Installation manual had nothing on
> my problem that I encountered. Google search didn't find anything (hey i'm
> not going to search thru 25k of pages hoping to find something). Search of
> Suse' dbase didn't find an answer. So I relied on support. Their reply was
> cryptic to say the least. No mention of how to do it, just do this. That's
> pathetic. And i'm paying for support! Once I finally got Suse installed
> sound was fux0red. Odd. Anyways I did check the Suse dbase and found what
> I thought was my answer - setup settings for my very laptop for Suse 8 pro.
> I copied the settings for the soundcard to the "T". Wouldn't work. So I
> emailed Suse ( by this time i'm rather pissed off with it all) and I get
> told "sorry we don't support soundcards in basic support). Gee - get this
> guys - in any other business they'd go bust. Big time. That is PATHETIC
> support. To a "T". And the funny thing? I've had redhat 7, 7.1 and 7.2 on
> that very said laptop without a single installation issue. And i've had
> sound working on it on all occasions. Funny that Suse couldn't manage it.
>
> This is all about atttitude, and quite plainly, the attitude of most
> experienced linux users SUCKS. Badly. I'll tell you know - for every 5
> people that try linux, 3 walk away from it for these exact reasons. Imagine
> how many people linux/open source is losing due to poor attitude. If you
> don't believe me ask newbies for their opinion on this subject. Most are
> too scared to admit it, so they keep their mouths shut. Some are outspoken,
> like myself.
>
> Dave W Pastern
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark L. Kahnt [mailto:kahnt@hosehead.dyndns.org]
> Sent: Monday, 9 September 2002 11:03 AM
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org; David Pastern
> Subject: Re: Why mailing-lists? Usenet have been invented, I hear. ;-)
>
>
>
> On Mon, 2002-09-09 at 20:33, nate wrote:
> > Kai Olsen said:
> > > Hi all.
> >
> > > Why on earth (to stay local) doesn't Debian move the lists to a
> > > newsserver instead ????
> >
> > i'll reply anyways.
> >
> > not every ISP has a news server, running a news server is very bandwidth
> > intensive and disk space intensive. I personally prefer mailing lists over
> > usenet anyday. Now I personally have no problem with a mail:news gateway
> > where people can use either method to communicate, I just perfer mailing
> > lists.
> >
> > debian-user is a relativly high traffic list..at least it has a good
> > ratio of good:crap(e.g. spam) mails, unlike many newsgroups ..
> >
> > I'd be interested in hearing if any other distributions use usenet
> > for user support. I have used SuSE, and FreeBSD's mailing lists ...
> >
> > if you don't like it, looks like you've gone away, you won't be missed!
> >
> > nate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-request@lists.debian.org
> > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> listmaster@lists.debian.org
> >
> >
>
> I'd add that linux.debian.user and muc.lists.debian.user are mail:news
> gateways, although I know that linux.debian.user is supposed to be a one
> way gateway - the mailing list showing on the newsgroup and no posts on
> the newsgroup (although that is misconfigured on a good number of
> servers, including big ones like SuperNews, and some posts appear there
> even though the newsgroups were supposed to be read-only - they do not
> cross back to the mailing list.) It is through those newsgroups that I
> first became familiar with this mailing list.
> --
> Mark L. Kahnt, FLMI/M, ALHC, HIA, AIAA, ACS, MHP
> ML Kahnt New Markets Consulting
> Tel: (613) 531-8684 / (613) 539-0935
> Email: kahnt@hosehead.dyndns.org
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-request@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> listmaster@lists.debian.org
>
--
Mark L. Kahnt, FLMI/M, ALHC, HIA, AIAA, ACS, MHP
ML Kahnt New Markets Consulting
Tel: (613) 531-8684 / (613) 539-0935
Email: kahnt@hosehead.dyndns.org
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