Re: why so much hate?
On Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 11:32:04PM +1000, Jason Carley wrote:
> Michael Merten wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 04:31:16PM +1000, Carley, Jason (Australia) wrote:
> > > I think that is a little harsh. I totally agree that everyone should read
> > > the docs. However, that does not create an excuse for unintuitive interface
> > > design. An app that is designed to cover new as well as experienced users
> >
> > I really have to step in here. The 'intuitive' argument is habitually
> > used to argue against *any* software that doesn't conform in every way
> > to the expectation of whoever is trying to use it. There is no
> > 'intuitive interface' and users expectations vary greatly depending on
> > their background. A wise man once sayeth:
> >
>
> Sure there is room here for opinion. Mine however, as a new user of debian, is that
> dselect can be improved. It is not a slight on the fabric of debian merely an
> observation. Having just ben through the process of installation, I feel I can
> comment with some recency.
First off, I didn't intend my comment to be construed as a slight on
you. People have been arguing the 'intuitiveness' of this or that
for as long as I've been subscribed to these lists. I just happened
to be reading *your* message when I felt the need to reply. :)
Second, I didn't try to imply that dselect couldn't be improved. I
merely object to the *idea* that any program can be designed in such
a way that people totally unfamiliar with it can jump right in use it
like they were born to it (which is what 'intuitive' implies).
>
> I am sure you are very experienced with debian and can thus use almost all of its
> tools better than I can. But there are areas where dselect can be difficult to
> follow and somewhat dangerous to use if you are not totally familiar with it. I guess
> it is an appropriate proving ground, a test if you will. But is that really the
> point of a package management application?
Not knowing you personally, I wouldn't be inclined to make any
assumptions based on our comparative abilities. I agree that dselect
can be dangerous for the unwary, but you have to consider its purpose.
It's designed to modify the very fabric of your operating system. I
put it to you that any program (including apt) with these capabilities
is inherently dangerous and should be approached with caution. Having
said that, I would have to agree that it is rather easy to unknowingly
make changes in package selections, if you don't know what to watch
out for. However, I'm not sure what could be done about it. The real
problem, as I see it, is that there is only so much you can readably
display in 80x25 characters. Perhaps something simple could be done
to make your changes stand out, like making the status indicators
blink for each package that was modified during the session.
>
> Why not have a novice mode in dselect? That way any expert user can plug away with
> the current format. new users could have more handholding?
>
> > The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's
> > all learned. -- Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, on X interfaces
>
> I don't know that that quote adds much... I reality we have all seen bad interfaces
> and good interfaces. In general I think that a good interface should enable a
> technical person to sit down without a lot of prior training and work their way
> through the application. Not perfectly but safely and in such a way that some work
Sure, good interfaces and bad interfaces. But the point of my
original posting was simply that good or bad, none of them are
intuitive. Also, whether they are good or bad for you depends
largely on your own personal background and experiences. Dselect
provides you with all the information you need; you just have to
pay close attention to what it tells you.
Mike
[Private mail welcome, but no need to CC: me on list replies.]
--
Michael Merten -- ironfoot@popaccount.com
---> NRA Life Member -- http://www.nra.org
---> Debian GNU/Linux Fan -- http://www.debian.org
---> CenLA-LUG Founder -- http://www.angelfire.com/la2/cenlalug
--
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."
-- Rincewind (from _Eric_)
Reply to: