Re: Why is debian "more of a learning curve" than Redhat???
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, David E. Scott wrote:
> Remco Blaakmeer wrote:
>
> > Well, Debian is not much different. It's just that first-time users get
> > overwhelmed (sp?) by the huge list of packages dselect shows them. That's
> > something you'll have to get used to until deity is released.
>
> 'deity'? now there's a new one on me. where can i find out more about
> it? i agree, i'm overwhelmed (sp ok) by the huge deselect list of
> packages. Perhaps that's why i found RedHat easier to understand: there
> was a simple check list: if you want such and such a function or program
> feature, just check the box and run, or check the "install all" box and
> just sit back - no dependency errors - it just does the install.
Well, you are probably comparing two different things. The outcome is,
they are different.
Deity is a progra that is under development and not really in a usable
state yet. It will do for you what dselect does now, only better and with
a nicer user interface.
Debian GNU/Linux isn't just an OS or a program, of which you can install
all elements. It is an OS with many programs. And some of these programs
happen to conflict with each other. Well, so be it. Mostly they offer
about the same functionality anyway. Think of it as an Office package for
Windows that would include both Word and WordPerfect. You should install
either one of them, but not both at once. Perhaps this is a bad example,
but you'll get the idea.
> When I tried selecting all in a debian 1.3.1 install, I got tons of
> dependency error messages - making me very unconfidant (sp?) that debian
> "knew" what it was doing.
See above. Debian knows what it's doing, that's why you get all those
errors.
> > The "whereis" command is called "locate". It reads a database that is
> > updated daily if you leave the computer turned on and/or if you have
> > installed the anacron package.
>
> So THAT's why I was getting the message that the locate database was
> over 8 days old. Later I found about the updatedb command, but it didn't
> seem to work. Thanks for the anacron information, I'll look into that: I
> suspect that allows one to keep the locate/db up to date even if one's
> machine isn't turned on all the time (this Pentium II/233 is so new and
> generates more heat than my previous 486 that I don't trust it yet
> leaving it on 24x7. In addition, the cat would spend all her time on top
> of the monitor <G>)
>
> I just checked the Linux Man book I have from RedHat, and there was no
> reference to anacron in the index. Where is a good source of information
> on this?
I don't know how old anacron is. It is a program that works somewhat
similar to cron, which runs programs at specified times, but it doesn't
require the computer to be turned on at all times in order to run all the
jobs. You don't really need to read a lot of documentation on it. Just
install the package. The default configuration runs it at boot time, which
will cause it to run all scripts which are normally ran daily at some time
very early in the morning. This will cause your computer to be very busy
for about ten minutes after booting.
> BTW, that same book, the second edition, does contain documentation for
> a whereis command (I thought its origins were in the unix world), but I
> don't recall ever finding it or being able to use it in either the
> Debian installation or the RedHat installation when I had them running.
Try the "which" command. For a command you can execute, it tells you which
thing actually is executed.
> > The "list" command is called "less" or "view". "view" is actually a
> > read-only mode of the editor "vi". If you install the vi clone called
> > "elvis", you'll have some interesting options.
>
> I found elvis in my Linux Man book (from RedHat), so that's covered. But
> thanks for the environment information below: our linux guru hasn't
> passed that along to me yet - but then I've not had a stable
> installation I can trust yet. :)
>
> > To configure "less" to be more useful, you can set some environment
> > variables. If you like them, place the commands to set them in
> > /etc/profile and they will be set every time you log in. These are the
> > commands:
>
> So *that's* where I stash my environment setups. Thanks again for the
> tips !!
>
> > If you have installed "elvis", the "view" command can give you hex output,
> > using the ":display" command. When viewing a file, type ":display hex"
>
> Interesting thing about the DOS command LIST (actually a shareware
> add-on that's very popular) is that you can say LIST <filename> and you
> get an ascii display and then just do a Cntrl-H to switch the display
> to hex mode. Very convenient, and doesn't require restarting the
> program with a different set of switches.
Well, the ":...." commands are things you type when you are in the
program. So you can actually switch when you are viewing a file. But, like
somebody else said, you probably won't be needing the ability to edit or
view binary files.
> > BTW, I can send you a reference sheet containing a summary for the most
> > used vi commands, if you like. It's about 8 kB of text.
>
> I'd appreciate that very much.
Ok, I'll send it in a separate message to you personally. If anyone else
wants it, just send me an e-mail.
> With all the editors out there, I'd really rather settle on one that I
> can use reliably. Our linux guru seems to prefer EMACS and that was the
> editor that RedHat uses once you get into X-windows - it has a GUI
> that's not too bad, except for the terrible default color scheme :)
Well, it seems that there are three types of unix users. People that stick
to something that looks like an editor they know from a different OS,
people that use vi or one of its clones and people that use emacs or
xemacs. I mostly use vi, since at one point I thought it was a simple
editor with a few basic commands that will get you going and a lot of
advanced commands that will help you editing files more easily, so I could
learn it. And I actually did. But if your local unix guru prefers emacs,
you could ask him/her to teach you emacs. Or you could get a decent
tutorial and teach youself.
On most modern unix flavors, emacs will be installed. All unices have vi.
> >You should get a
> > UNIX book from the local library to actually learn vi, but this will help
> > you a lot if you can't figure out how to exit vi.
>
> That Linux Man book I have (2nd edition) doesn't document vi, only
> elvis, as noted above.
That sould be no problem. Stick to elvis, you'll love its X11 mode. And
its ":help" command.
> > Yes, that is, in my opinion, the most important point where Debian is
> > still behind other OSes -- _beginner_ friendlyness. Debian may be user
> > friendly (there is no typical user, so "user friendly" has actually no
> > meaning at all for any program), it is not beginner friendly.
>
> *That's* the term I mean: beginner-friendly. I think we agree 100% on
> this point. ;)
:-)
> > Yes, your position is actually typical for beginning Debian users. But,
> > keep on reading documentation (as you should always do, but especially
> > with Linux -- any Linux flavour) and one day you'll be an expert. :-)
>
> What I really need is some sort of Tutorial document. The reference
> documents, like the Linux Man book doesn't fit that bill. And the
> HOW-TO's that I've printed off and read so far assume more knowledge and
> comfort level than I'm at right now.
For generic Linux documentation, look at the Linux Documentation Project.
The main site is http://sunsite.unc.edu/LDP/ . There will probably be a
mirror near you. The "Installation and Getting Started Guide" is viewable
online in html format. For the other formats, ask you linux guru. :-)
Remco
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