Re: Show me the money Re: Donations to Debian
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:12:48 CDT, Rick Hawkins wrote:
>
>Dave Cinege wrote,
>
>> Yes you have. I'm saying the work done be the people outside the US is now
>> asscoiated with a US entity. It's not 'theirs' anymore, while it is in the US.
>
>this is not true, in any sense of the word. The difference between debian
>unincorporated or incorporated makes absolutley no difference in ownership, at
>least in the common law countries (US, britain, australia, etc.).
>
>
>> If I make a package tonight, and submited it, am I then consider an employee
>> (agent, memeber, whatever) of that corp? No, and therefor it means nothing to
my
>> liability. But since there is now a legal person called Debian we could both be
>> brought into litigation. Before if someone did something, it was just them. To do
>> anything to Debian meant going after all the seperate people involved. That's
>> because no guy named Debian existed....now he does....
>
>Again, this is completely wrong. There was no protection from the absense of
>a "debian the person". It would *not* have required going after all of the
>separate people involved.
No you are wrong, and I firmly hold by my opinion. Unless you can provide me
case law otherwise, you are the one with the opinion on shakey ground.
An informal group of guys, that have no assests, makes no profit, makes no
sellable product, and takes no risk, in no way can be considered a business,
enterprise, joint venture et al.
Can't happen! And that's what the law would require for anything to follow back to
the 'members' (which there are no members cause in legal terms it did not exist)
>It would have been going after any single one, or
>any group, which was convenient. Each of whom would have been liable in the
>full amount of any judgment.
>
>If you make a package, you still face liability under either setup. However,
>incorporated you face no liability for my packages. That is the difference.
You now have it bassackwards. Where as before it could not be followed back, be
cause of no official assiciation, now with the advent of Debian Inc. it can.
Now if we were all covered by the corporation, you would be correct, but currently
we are not. What is would take to cover us all is a re structing of Debian in such a
way that it becomes a commercial type (though not for profit) orginazation. (then
you really need to worry about being sued)
So guys make the Decision.....
Debian or Debian Inc.? We can't have both.
>> If anything is done to this guy, the work the developers are 'giving' him are
subject
>> to any sanctions against him. Follow? It has created a liabity.
>
>again, this is wrong. see above. Also, developers do not "give" anything to
>debian; they license. They still own their packages.
More of a reason they are not protected.
>> What members? Debian never existed. There was no formal orginazation. No
>> solid heiarchy. No dues.
>
>Again, this just doesn't matter. Debian did indeed exist, and did indeed have
>members, whether formally organized or not.
It certainly does matter. You can't sue something that doesn't legally exist.
The members themselves could be sued, but as I pointed out for it to follow back to
all of them, it would have to be show that this group of guys the release software
free to the internet, are a formal orginazation.
If this is not the case then you can follow something back for anything. By your
logic, if I write a peice of code for the linux kernel, and it turns out a kernel gets out
with a virus and starts a suit, I can get sued even if I had no part in that code. Can't
happen. Won't make it into court. There's simply no affilation. (Especially since it is
released as source only)
And please spare me the "Well hey after you spend $$$ to prove it" argument.
That is our fucked up, sue happy, everyone owes me something society. Having
the corp won't stop that. Even if the corporation in it's current state did provide full
protectsion, it wouldn't stop someone from filing suit, and costing that indivigual out
of pocket until they proved it was frivolous. (Unless Debian Inc. will start providing
lawyers fees. With what money I have no idea)
>yes.
>
>> Then they are each indivigually liable no matter what.
>
>They are.
>
>> The corp just now officially puts them all in the same basket.
>
>this is where you are wrong. It is exactly the opposite: the corp takes them
>*out* of the basket.
NOT the way it is set up now. You're working in generic terms, instead of the
current state of things. Is there a Debian Inc? Yes. Do all the deb devs have some
sort of formal (legally arguable) link to it now. Yes. Are they all part of it?(ie directly
covered) No.
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