Hey,
I will answer as the current/still roaraudio and the previous mumble
maintainer, but I do not want to lost too much words anymore about this
*** whole situation.
As an side note, please CC me, I am not subscribed to this list anymore.
Am 07.06.2012 01:23, schrieb Philipp Schafft:
>> Since you don't even mention celt support in any of your descriptions
>> of roar, either in the package or on your website, this seems more like
>> a minor easter egg than a "major feature" anyway.
>
> Package descriptions are no docs. If I list all features I will have
> documentation. See your own package descriptions...
Full ACK with Philipp.
>
>
>>> This is why we like to make this a smooth transition with getting
>>> in Opus first, then removing CELT. Also note that this transition needs
>>> users using it to change config so it should not be a single upload
>>> removing one and adding the other.
>>
>> If you can't sanely handle this in one upload, then your package is
>> broken for your users anyway. There is no arbitrary period of time
>> on the order of "1 month" as you claimed earlier in which they will
>> all update to the first version before you upload the second.
>
> This has nothing to do with the package but with users. Users are
> nothing I can update via upload.
I also can not understand why it is a fix to break compatiblity and
(main) features by just disabling them blindly..
>>> The cirtical factor is time here. Ron Lee is a bit late with this
>>> transition in the release cycle. Had he given us about a month more we
>>> would have done all this already and everybody would be happy.
>>
>> Let's be very clear on this point. You have been asking me about this
>> for over a year now, and have been fully informed on everything that
>> was planned. So if anyone is "a bit late" getting their act together,
>> you'll need to discuss that with the man you see in the mirror.
>
> Let's make it *very* clear: Last time I asked you you said nothing about
> this nor pinged the package maintainer via an offical (like BTS) or
> inoffical (like pinging me on IRC) channel.
With my package maintainer hat on I just heard about this removal ~7-10
days ago, and I heard it from one of my upstreams..
>> Yes, this is late in the cycle - but only from the perspective of the
>> release team. Everyone else, including you, has known this was coming,
>> and that things would happen fast after the IETF working group finally
>> concluded, as uncertain as the actual date for that had been. And
>> everyone else, except you, has been extremely cooperative and has got
>> their part of the work done already, efficiently and painlessly.
>
> See above.
Everyone else is not ready to replace celt or to support opus, see my
messages later..
>
>> A few days ago, you claimed this would take 4 months. Today you claim
>> a month. Without getting gnuplot out to fit this, on that projection
>> we should be down to my 15 minute estimate, by say, this Wednesday?
>
> I'm sorry if this was unclear: I was talking about the technical part
> here. The diffrence is because there is not only your schedule but also
> the one of other groups. The RoarAudio project has a defined release
> cycle to ensure quality. Depending on when you ping us (what you never
> did) changes take one or two months to go in if they are accepted.
> You can read about it here:
> https://bts.keep-cool.org/wiki/ReleaseCycle
I also taked to several people that Philipp said that it *may* be
possible to include opus/whatever support withing 1-2 months (I said
that around seven days ago), but in the same sentence I said, that it
wouldn't be stable, it would be something like a hack to build with the
missing celt..
>> I already sent you the one line patch that was needed. And I still have
>> the 12 minutes up my sleeve from doing that if you'd like me to upload it.
>>
>> Just say "Ok". and it will happen. It doesn't get much easier than that.
>
> You send a one line patch to break the package.
>
> In the bug you opend (after you gave us 13 minutes to upload or NMU as
> you said, very nice move btw.) you tell us that it is this easy as it is
> no transition to opus but a pure removal of celt. Please look at the
> title of this ticket. Transitions do *NOT* consist of removing something
> without replaceing it.
Full ACK with Philipp.
>> <hint> Embedding celt in roar is not one of them </>
>
> Oh, that was what you recommended before we told you that this is a very
> bad idea. Rememer?
YOU (ron) said to me, that mumble is such a special case within your
great planned and well done celt => opus transition, why it should use
it's embedded celt version. I have told you several times that it is a
quite bad idea, it would be better to maintain celt as an ato. package
about the wheezy lifetime! Using the embedded celt version is a bug per
policy and debian-security also will not be happy about this (but I told
this too much times..)...
> Dear release team,
>
> the-me (the maintainer) just uploaded a new version with CELT disabled.
> Opus support is not yet entered upstream (see
> https://bts.keep-cool.org/ticket/243 for details).
>
> This is NOT because the maintainers think this is right but *ONLY*
> because we stop caring. Ron Lee is not willing to help, does not follow
> the standards (like opening tickets early), telling everbody technically
> wrong things (like the above). The rest of what we hear from him is
> strong language.
Again full ACK.
>
> We gave up. This is the same for mumble, where the maintainer(s) gave up
> and handed the maintainership to ron. He broke the package and now it is
> *completly* *useless* (#675971). In case of RoarAudio it is only
> completly useless for some of it's users.
Given the above (that he wanted to use the embedded version and I do not
agree with it, and with this so called "transition" at this time in
general) I realy were suprised that Ron completly moved mumble to opus
now, with the side effects that (I will just quote from the bugreport):
* without CELT, you sit on a small island, population you,
and talk to yourself :-P
* With disabled CELT, mumble produces horrible audio glitches which are
a known issue with the current OPUS integration. Furthermore, it means
Debian mumble clients can no longer sanely communicate with any
officially released version. In the worst case, it will even break
things for other users on a server since it shows very incomplete codec
support.
IMHO mumble is release critical now and should not be released in this
state, also if Ron downgraded this issue to wishlist and closed it.
>
> Whenever there is a problem somebody like him stand up, shout at you and
> you can be sure one of those words are included: RM, drop or NMU.
> Most NMUs I saw lately broke the packages in one or another way.
>
> The result are developers no longer caring like me. Just a few months
> ago I hoped to become a DD. Now I think of switching away even as user.
> Other DDs I know consider the same. Some already done.
>
Or upstreams (okay Philipp is also an upstream), but I also were
contacted by some mumble upstream developers what I have done with my
last upload (ok not my fault, not my upload), but it is realy
disappoitining). Much thanks to Nicos for publishing the logs. Get some
popcorn and read e.g.:
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=675971#29
--
/*
Mit freundlichem Gruß / With kind regards,
Patrick Matthäi
GNU/Linux Debian Developer
E-Mail: pmatthaei@debian.org
patrick@linux-dev.org
*/
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