[Date Prev][Date Next] [Thread Prev][Thread Next] [Date Index] [Thread Index]

Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures



Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> writes:
> On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 10:43 PM Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> wrote:

>> Or, let me put this another way: one of the fears that I've seen
>> expressed around warnings is that it's a permanent record sort of
>> thing, or it starts a file on someone, or otherwise creates a
>> presumption of future bad behavior.  [...] This bothers me a lot.  I
>> think this perception is very harmful to the project because it creates
>> excessive shame and anger and fear, which can be quite
>> counterproductive in attempting to just get someone to shift their
>> behavior.

> Okay, so now you are saying I am being "very harmful to the project
> because [my perception] creates excessive shame and anger and fear"?

That is precisely the opposite of what I meant.

What I'm trying to express is that the warning *entirely reasonably* made
you feel shamed and attacked for a number of reasons, including the fact
that it was public, and that making you feel that way was unnecessary and
probably counterproductive.  In other words, I think your reactions were
understandable and are evidence that the warning system is not working the
way that I think that it should because it doesn't provide enough
psychological space for people to understand it as I think it should be
intended.

And to be clear I think this is a problem with the tools that we have
available and the process we're currently using, not with how people are
trying to use the imperfect tools that we have.

> Your statement is plainly contradicted by the DAM warning I received.
> It included this line:

>     If you continue resorting to personal insults when you interact with
>     other people, the DAMs will have no choice but to review your
>     membership in the project.

> Upon receipt, it was reasonable for me to express, in your words, my
> "fears [...] around warnings [...] that it's a permanent record sort
> of thing, or it starts a file on someone, or otherwise creates a
> presumption of future bad behavior."

Exactly.  This is why I do not like the way that we are currently doing
warnings.  The first step by a team that is serious enough to not be
ignored already feels like a threat of expulsion.  I think we're starting
with too large of a hammer because we don't have the right tools to try to
course-correct earlier in a way that doesn't make people feel publicly
attacked, and the announcement of the warning to the project (an entirely
well-intentioned process that grew out of trying to solve a different
problem) makes people quite reasonably feel like they're being publicly
shamed.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)              <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


Reply to: