Re: Debian supports pridemonth?
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:24 PM Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> writes:
>
> Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater <amacater@einval.com> wrote:
> >>
> Eldon> <snip>
> >> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
> >> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
> >> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor
> >> announces she is trans.
> >>
> >> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in
> >> every social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless
> >> and with every good wish, as ever,
> >>
> >> Andy C.
> >>
>
> Eldon> It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project
> Eldon> observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who
> Eldon> celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it.
>
> Perhaps.
> But acknowledging pain we cause in our community is important.
>
> For those of us in the LGBTQ+ community, I think it is likely to hurt
> when we're trying to reaffirm that we're welcome in the project and
> that ends up being controversial.
>
> Remember we didn't just blanket support Pride Month.
> We talked about what that meant to Debian:
> https://bits.debian.org/2019/06/diversity-and-inclusion.html
>
> That blog post is about what joining Pride celebrations means to
> Debian.
> And it is directly and completely about inclusion.
>
I had not seen that post before, and I don't see it referenced
elsewhere in this thread.
I think this thread started with a fundamental misunderstanding on the
meaning/purpose of the logo. From that post, it sounds like it is not
intended specifically as a pride logo, but a logo for diversity in
general used by the diversity team. That actually changes a lot for
me. Maybe it was discussed on another list which I do not follow.
> And yeah, when that ends of being controversial it hurts.
> And discussing and arguing about it is draining.
>
> And I'm sure that this is draining for people with different positions.
> And I hear people's worry and frustration when they are concerned that
> Debian is making political statements that they disagree with.
>
> So perhaps this discussion needs to happen.
> And sometimes we need to experience pain as a community.
>
> But I ask you not to deny that pain. Do not pretend that it's "just
> concerns," and that there is not a real cost to the discussion.
> Have it if you need to, but have compassion for everyone involved.
>
For me, these _are_ honest concerns -- and I would have the same
concerns about using any debian logo that was for a specific group (it
appears this one was not, I believe that was the misunderstanding that
led to this thread) -- namely how do we fairly decide which groups
should get their own logos on debian.org and on which days without
becoming very political? I apologize if my message was dismissive or
otherwise unsympathetic, it wasn't intended as such. The message I
was replying to felt like an outright attack against anyone who had
voiced concerns, and I did not feel the claims were accurate.
> And yeah, having your coming out within the Debian community and having
> it drop in the middle of this is damn well going to hurt.
>
> I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong by causing pain. But I am
> asking you to show compassion.
>
> --Sam
--
Eldon Koyle
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:24 PM Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> writes:
>
> Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater <amacater@einval.com> wrote:
> >>
> Eldon> <snip>
> >> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
> >> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
> >> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor
> >> announces she is trans.
> >>
> >> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in
> >> every social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless
> >> and with every good wish, as ever,
> >>
> >> Andy C.
> >>
>
> Eldon> It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project
> Eldon> observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who
> Eldon> celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it.
>
> Perhaps.
> But acknowledging pain we cause in our community is important.
>
> For those of us in the LGBTQ+ community, I think it is likely to hurt
> when we're trying to reaffirm that we're welcome in the project and
> that ends up being controversial.
>
> Remember we didn't just blanket support Pride Month.
> We talked about what that meant to Debian:
> https://bits.debian.org/2019/06/diversity-and-inclusion.html
>
> That blog post is about what joining Pride celebrations means to
> Debian.
> And it is directly and completely about inclusion.
>
> And yeah, when that ends of being controversial it hurts.
> And discussing and arguing about it is draining.
>
> And I'm sure that this is draining for people with different positions.
> And I hear people's worry and frustration when they are concerned that
> Debian is making political statements that they disagree with.
>
> So perhaps this discussion needs to happen.
> And sometimes we need to experience pain as a community.
>
> But I ask you not to deny that pain. Do not pretend that it's "just
> concerns," and that there is not a real cost to the discussion.
> Have it if you need to, but have compassion for everyone involved.
>
> And yeah, having your coming out within the Debian community and having
> it drop in the middle of this is damn well going to hurt.
>
> I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong by causing pain. But I am
> asking you to show compassion.
>
> --Sam
--
Eldon Koyle
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