Re: Debian, debutsav, CoC and Debconf 2016 and different meanings to gender-diversity.
Hey.
Even while I write at some spots in "we" term (where I am mostly
referring to with my diversity team hat on) this is still primarily my
own reply. Especially in the cases where I use the "I" term explicitly.
* shirish शिरीष <shirishag75@gmail.com> [2019-01-07 21:09:22 CET]:
> I along with others also opined that we should have two women on the
> panel instead of just one just to keep the panel sort of
> gender-neutral but only Shruti was on the panel. I simply do not know
> the reasons to presume or assume why it happened but do care enough to
> point it out and to ask what we could and should have been better. It
> wasn't as if talent wasn't around. As far as people from LGBTQIA+ or
> non-binary people are concerned, I am afraid though, the road is long
^^^^^^^^^^
> ahead as it wasn't even part of the discussions anywhere. Although I
> do hope after de-criminalization of Sec 377 we would see these
> conversations happen [2] [3]
>
> One of the intersting conversations I had with quite a few
> participants is how much they had looked at the website and the CoC.
> Sadly, it seems many didn't, at least not in any detail.
> Interestingly, it was both the genders who didn't take or have the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> time.
Can you please not speak of "both the genders" when you seemingly
acknowledge (thanks for mentioning that explicitly :)) the existence of
non-binary people? That's quite confusing.
> I do remember some blog posts in the pasts, maybe in Pycon 2018 or in
> some other international conference, they had a banner which had the
> CoC written on it. Maybe that could be something that both Debconf and
> the various miniconferences could emulate aside from agreeing to the
> CoC ?
While this image doesn't has the CoC written over it, it has a QR code
with the link to http://deb.li/dcoc on it:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/nvtbqDiTUi8eCqwd7
We (as in the diversity team) plan to use that graphic and put it into
the webpage too. This is work in progress, as is the proper announce
about the team through the debian-devel-announce mailing list.
> Coming to the debian side of things, there doesn't seem to much
> documentation about gender diversity as far as documentation is
> concerned. In fact, the wiki doesn't seem to have an article on gender
> diversity and even the diversity statement is all to brief for
> somebody new to the term 'gender diversity' . It doesn't tell the
> person anything. Please put yourself in the shoes of 22 year old
> person who may come across this page for the first time and see the
> term for the first-time. It is a touch point so it would be nice if we
> could either elaborate it either there or link it to some page which
> better defines the terminology and the context. [4] [5]
You are right, there is definitely a lot of room for improvement here.
We are aware of that and are welcoming people who would like to get
involved. :)
But: The diversity statement was discussed at length a few years ago,
and it was considered that it makes more sense to have it rather shorter
than longer to not cause issues with trying to list minorities, focusing
on the minority terms, singling them out and on the other hand missing
some that might then feel excluded. So the brevity of the diversity
statement is intentional.
> Coming to Debconf 2016, few of the blog posts I wanted to write and
> had partially written about were about Rhonda and my interaction with
> them (using Sage Sharp's pronouns [7] .)
Even I consider you mean it well, please don't refer to me using
someone elses pronouns. That feels wrong. My pronouns are
she/her/hers.
> I wanted to share both their celebrations, the interactions and
> questions raised and answered about gender, my own uneasiness in how
> should I address them when writing as a third-person in a blog post as
> both the terms he/she felt wrong. I shared one of my blog posts with
> few DD's whom I respect and hold in high-esteem so they may help me in
> this delicate situation but none of them answered.
The best approach to that would be ask the person directly instead of
sending a mail to a public mailing list about the confusion, without a
Cc to the person. That usually would feel much more welcoming and being
taken serious. Thanks for understanding. :)
> I could have used 'somebody asked x or y question' which many a times
> I do use simply because I don't remember a person's name but in this
> situation it was different and I couldn't publish the blog posts with
> that knowledge in good conscience. With no way out, I simply junked
> the posts.
That's quite some pity. Why didn't it cross your mind to simply ask me
instead? That would have felt like you are interested in resolving your
confusion, and actually would have moved it forward. :)
> In light of recent happenings it does seem that that the
> DD's did me a favor. It is very much possible that they were pretty
> much confused or indeterminate as I was. What would be a good way to
> address this ?
See above. Simply ask about your confusion. Directly, not indirectly
and have me stumble upon it by accident (because like you, I'm not
subscribed to -project, so it really was by accident).
> Could there be a possibility of having of having a debian-diversity
> mailing list on lists.debian.org where some of these touchy topics
> could be untied or unknotted in a civil manner ?
This is being discussed. There is debian-women so far, and some people
questioned whether the debian-women chapter could or should be part of
Debian Diversity. I want to make clear (again) that this was neither my
intention nor do I want this to be reason to have women related topics
be reduced to just fade in ... and get overlooked. But that's all work
in progress and discussion, and while I agree that it would be a good
idea we don't have that list yet, all I can offer you is use the
diversity@debian.org mail address for the time being, or come by in
#debian-diversity on IRC to discuss things.
> Sorry for being too long and there is a strong possibility that I
> shared or coupled too many things together but I do feel strongly that
> they are all related to one another.
Sometimes it's needed to just do a braindump of some sense to get it
out and even formulate it into words in your own mind. That's all
good. :) Sometimes it makes sense to let it sit for the next day then
and sort of go over it again to reduce the length or potential
duplications or scratch parts that aren't needed ... But I am aware
that this would also take energy to do so, and it might result in not
sending anything at all for some. No worries.
> I would point out that I scanned the mail multiple times to see if I
> intentionally or unintentionally hurt somebody. I do say sorry to
> Rhonda whose name I have taken now and couldn't do right with them
> then and have no excuses.
See it as an invitation to address me directly next time. Most trans
people feel very appreciated when they are asked about their pronouns,
so that's rarely a bad idea to do. And given that you mentioned my blog
you should be aware that I'm very open about it - and thus hopefully
also send the message that people can talk to me.
Cheers, and thanks for asking and talking about it. :)
Rhonda
--
Fühlst du dich mutlos, fass endlich Mut, los |
Fühlst du dich hilflos, geh raus und hilf, los | Wir sind Helden
Fühlst du dich machtlos, geh raus und mach, los | 23.55: Alles auf Anfang
Fühlst du dich haltlos, such Halt und lass los |
Reply to: