Re: Debian, debutsav, CoC and Debconf 2016 and different meanings to gender-diversity.
Reply in-line :-
On 08/01/2019, Rhonda D'Vine <rhonda@deb.at> wrote:
> Hey.
>
Dear Rhonda,
> Even while I write at some spots in "we" term (where I am mostly
> referring to with my diversity team hat on) this is still primarily my
> own reply. Especially in the cases where I use the "I" term explicitly.
>
> * shirish शिरीष <shirishag75@gmail.com> [2019-01-07 21:09:22 CET]:
>> I along with others also opined that we should have two women on the
>> panel instead of just one just to keep the panel sort of
>> gender-neutral but only Shruti was on the panel. I simply do not know
>> the reasons to presume or assume why it happened but do care enough to
>> point it out and to ask what we could and should have been better. It
>> wasn't as if talent wasn't around. As far as people from LGBTQIA+ or
>> non-binary people are concerned, I am afraid though, the road is long
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>> ahead as it wasn't even part of the discussions anywhere. Although I
>> do hope after de-criminalization of Sec 377 we would see these
>> conversations happen [2] [3]
>>
>> One of the intersting conversations I had with quite a few
>> participants is how much they had looked at the website and the CoC.
>> Sadly, it seems many didn't, at least not in any detail.
>> Interestingly, it was both the genders who didn't take or have the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> time.
>
> Can you please not speak of "both the genders" when you seemingly
> acknowledge (thanks for mentioning that explicitly :)) the existence of
> non-binary people? That's quite confusing.
>
Ah... I had to read the line twice and the context above to see what you mean.
To be clearer, we didn't have any trans people at all in debutsav but
just men and women.
Hence the conversations were with both of them in a casual manner just to know
how much they read what was on the site.
>> I do remember some blog posts in the pasts, maybe in Pycon 2018 or in
>> some other international conference, they had a banner which had the
>> CoC written on it. Maybe that could be something that both Debconf and
>> the various miniconferences could emulate aside from agreeing to the
>> CoC ?
>
> While this image doesn't has the CoC written over it, it has a QR code
> with the link to http://deb.li/dcoc on it:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/nvtbqDiTUi8eCqwd7
That would work I guess but I at least don't see an issue in displaying
the CoC either at FrontDesk/registration so it serves as a gentle reminder.
The banner or standee doesn't need to be event-specific but is a general
standee which could be used multiple times in multiple events.
> We (as in the diversity team) plan to use that graphic and put it into
> the webpage too. This is work in progress, as is the proper announce
> about the team through the debian-devel-announce mailing list.
>
Nice.
>> Coming to the debian side of things, there doesn't seem to much
>> documentation about gender diversity as far as documentation is
>> concerned. In fact, the wiki doesn't seem to have an article on gender
>> diversity and even the diversity statement is all to brief for
>> somebody new to the term 'gender diversity' . It doesn't tell the
>> person anything. Please put yourself in the shoes of 22 year old
>> person who may come across this page for the first time and see the
>> term for the first-time. It is a touch point so it would be nice if we
>> could either elaborate it either there or link it to some page which
>> better defines the terminology and the context. [4] [5]
>
> You are right, there is definitely a lot of room for improvement here.
> We are aware of that and are welcoming people who would like to get
> involved. :)
>
I don't know whether I would be the right person because I probably would
get things wrong more than right (foot in mouth comes in mind). See
below for more -
> But: The diversity statement was discussed at length a few years ago,
> and it was considered that it makes more sense to have it rather shorter
> than longer to not cause issues with trying to list minorities, focusing
> on the minority terms, singling them out and on the other hand missing
> some that might then feel excluded. So the brevity of the diversity
> statement is intentional.
>
That I remember.
>> Coming to Debconf 2016, few of the blog posts I wanted to write and
>> had partially written about were about Rhonda and my interaction with
>> them (using Sage Sharp's pronouns [7] .)
>
> Even I consider you mean it well, please don't refer to me using
> someone elses pronouns. That feels wrong. My pronouns are
> she/her/hers.
>
I see and understand, sorry for presuming and assuming.
>> I wanted to share both their celebrations, the interactions and
>> questions raised and answered about gender, my own uneasiness in how
>> should I address them when writing as a third-person in a blog post as
>> both the terms he/she felt wrong. I shared one of my blog posts with
>> few DD's whom I respect and hold in high-esteem so they may help me in
>> this delicate situation but none of them answered.
>
> The best approach to that would be ask the person directly instead of
> sending a mail to a public mailing list about the confusion, without a
> Cc to the person. That usually would feel much more welcoming and being
> taken serious. Thanks for understanding. :)
>
Again a mistake on my part which partly I have resolved :)
To put it simply, I was afraid I would say the wrong thing. You have
to understand
that it was my first exposure to lot of ideas and processes and was
simply overwhelmed.
I neither have had any either any training, learning. The only principle I know
or learnt as a human being is to do no harm to anybody. At times, words could
and do have a much more devastating effect than probably even actions as
has been demonstrated in the recent messages on debian-project itself
with recurpersions one perhaps couldn't imagine perhaps some years ago.
>> I could have used 'somebody asked x or y question' which many a times
>> I do use simply because I don't remember a person's name but in this
>> situation it was different and I couldn't publish the blog posts with
>> that knowledge in good conscience. With no way out, I simply junked
>> the posts.
>
> That's quite some pity. Why didn't it cross your mind to simply ask me
> instead? That would have felt like you are interested in resolving your
> confusion, and actually would have moved it forward. :)
>
>> In light of recent happenings it does seem that that the
>> DD's did me a favor. It is very much possible that they were pretty
>> much confused or indeterminate as I was. What would be a good way to
>> address this ?
>
> See above. Simply ask about your confusion. Directly, not indirectly
> and have me stumble upon it by accident (because like you, I'm not
> subscribed to -project, so it really was by accident).
>
This was my failing as well but there are few things to keep in mind -
a. IIRC, this probably was my first interaction with you and there have
been total of 4 messages including this e-mail from the time I started
interacting
with the Debian community. Hence I didn't know what would be 'correct' or not
in interacting with you.
b. While I am and was curious I hadn't seen any diversity talk to either know
the experience or the terminology in Debconf 2016 [1] . In fact, I came that
I had done the faux paus of deadnaming [2] which I didn't even know was
a term till yesterday. I did see that there was a BOF in 2017 Debconf [3]
as well as in 2018 Debconf [4] , sadly though neither of which I could
be part of.
I am sure to have listened and at least get some idea of the diverse range
of views, opnions and understandings and share the same within the communities
around me, via my blog masking people's names etc. but still have some
sort of gist out.
I am sure more than a few people are kittish around gender-diversity
as they are around mental health but the latter is another goose
altogether.
c. If a mail and conversation hadn't come on the Debian India mailing
list [5] , I wouldn't have invested time on reading and understanding
of the last two months mail on debian-project which when coupled with
my own feeling of guilt led to this outpouring.
>> Could there be a possibility of having of having a debian-diversity
>> mailing list on lists.debian.org where some of these touchy topics
>> could be untied or unknotted in a civil manner ?
>
> This is being discussed. There is debian-women so far, and some people
> questioned whether the debian-women chapter could or should be part of
> Debian Diversity. I want to make clear (again) that this was neither my
> intention nor do I want this to be reason to have women related topics
> be reduced to just fade in ... and get overlooked. But that's all work
> in progress and discussion, and while I agree that it would be a good
> idea we don't have that list yet, all I can offer you is use the
> diversity@debian.org mail address for the time being, or come by in
> #debian-diversity on IRC to discuss things.
>
I do understand that there are lot of potential minefields out there.
The simplest example might be of a person who is questioning their
own sexuality which probably is and would be a vulnerable position
to people who identify themselves as trans but not ready to be 'out'
with it and so on and so forth.
I do feel however that diversity should have its own mailing list with
clear seperation from debian-women even though the agendas
between the two might overlap. While #debian-diversity does sound
good and I'll definitely look it up, my idea of the mailing list is and was
that people who identify as binary as well as non-binary can
have a place to interact, build bridges, trust and bring awareness of
social, societial and even perhaps legal challenges which are faced by
the community and what solutions could be there. There is possibility
that some of the proposed solutions might work for debian-women, might work
for minorities of either race, caste etc. While the paths may seem different
who knows what synergies may open up when sharing ideas, thoughts etc.
>> Sorry for being too long and there is a strong possibility that I
>> shared or coupled too many things together but I do feel strongly that
>> they are all related to one another.
>
> Sometimes it's needed to just do a braindump of some sense to get it
> out and even formulate it into words in your own mind. That's all
> good. :) Sometimes it makes sense to let it sit for the next day then
> and sort of go over it again to reduce the length or potential
> duplications or scratch parts that aren't needed ... But I am aware
> that this would also take energy to do so, and it might result in not
> sending anything at all for some. No worries.
>
True as well.
>> I would point out that I scanned the mail multiple times to see if I
>> intentionally or unintentionally hurt somebody. I do say sorry to
>> Rhonda whose name I have taken now and couldn't do right with them
>> then and have no excuses.
>
> See it as an invitation to address me directly next time. Most trans
> people feel very appreciated when they are asked about their pronouns,
> so that's rarely a bad idea to do. And given that you mentioned my blog
> you should be aware that I'm very open about it - and thus hopefully
> also send the message that people can talk to me.
>
Noted. Again a learning for me.
> Cheers, and thanks for asking and talking about it. :)
> Rhonda
:)
> --
> Fühlst du dich mutlos, fass endlich Mut, los |
> Fühlst du dich hilflos, geh raus und hilf, los | Wir sind Helden
> Fühlst du dich machtlos, geh raus und mach, los | 23.55: Alles auf Anfang
> Fühlst du dich haltlos, such Halt und lass los |
>
1. https://debconf16.debconf.org/schedule/
2. http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Deadnaming
3. https://debconf17.debconf.org/talks/25/
4. https://debconf18.debconf.org/talks/45-debian-diversity-team-discussion-session/
5. https://lists.debian.org/debian-dug-in/2019/01/msg00000.html
--
Regards,
Shirish Agarwal शिरीष अग्रवाल
My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/
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