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Re: Code of Conduct: picking up

On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 06:52:10AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > > What does
> > > 	"poor behaviour"
> > > mean?

> > That which is socially disruptive.

> You exchange one undefined term against another, but that doesn't
> change the underlying problem, which is, *what* is socially
> disruptive?

> An example: I was living long years in Siena, Italy, and some of
> my friends used *very* commonly very strong words for daily 
> greetings, like "che c**** fai" "porco ***" etc (those speaking
> Italian will understand). In many regions of Italy, and in other
> circumstance, like my current living environment in Japan, this 
> would be *extremly* socially disruptive, but back there it was
> normality.

> The whole point is that all these pseudo definitions of normality
> are just fake, fake, fake. We are cheating ourselves if we believe
> that even the most simple facts are globally socially acceptable.
> Go to Chechnya and or some remote provinces of Georgia, and you
> will be tought something else.

> Changing tags, names, words does not change the fundamental problem.

You are using cultural relativism to justify behavior that is against the
norms of *this* culture (the Debian one).  I'm sure you will find, when this
is put to a vote, that you are distinctly in the minority in holding this

> > argumentum ad hominem, if that's clearer? I.e., this is to say "play the
> > ball, not the man".

> See above, same same. What is consider "personal attack" in one
> surrounding is just a friendly greeting between close buddies in
> the other?

> Example: In America hip hip society if I meet my buddy and greet
> him with "Hi boy, you got a belly that big that you cannot see your b***s",
> in most of the cases I would be considered extremely rude, while in
> other surroundings this is a honorific term.

The people on this mailing list are your peers in a very prominent Free
Software project, not your "buddy".  Even if someone on this list *is* your
buddy, it's not appropriate to address them that way /on this list/.  This
is not a difficult concept to grasp, and I think your protestations here are
nothing but an excuse for ignoring the obvious social norms.

> > I also happen to believe that this is currently not the status quo in
> > Debian; and if it were, then that would be an even better reason why we
> > need a code of conduct. We don't want bad behaviour; not from random
> > mailinglist participants, not from Debian Developers, and certainly not
> > from people in a position of power.

> You missed the point. It was that the code of conduct can be used
> against critical voices. Too easily.

That's an important problem to guard against when formulating a CoC; but
there is a difference between criticism and personal attacks / abuse, and
there is no fundamental reason we can't draw a line in the sand against
abuse without having a chilling effect on criticism.  If you have concrete
suggestions for improving the CoC language to *not* have the side effect of
suppressing criticism, I for one would be interested in hearing them.

Steve Langasek                   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer                                    http://www.debian.org/
slangasek@ubuntu.com                                     vorlon@debian.org

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