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Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes

On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 09:34:39PM +0200, Sandro Tosi wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 06:40:06PM +0200, Sandro Tosi wrote:
> >> THEY STEAL our packages
> >
> > Uarg. That sentence let me discard everything sensible/intelligent
> > you might have said in your mail. I often read sentences like that
> > in the discussion.
> the mail was (intentionally) quite extremist, but it's not that far
> away from: taking everything giving back very *very* few.

Your mails in this thread tend to be extremist. Maybe it would help the
discussions to calm down a bit and try to stay objective?

> > It makes me sick and wonder if I do invest my time in
> > the right project.
> > Lets face it: If you do make things open source
> > you /must/ and really /should/ accept that others do re-use it according
> > to the license under which you license it. Ubuntu does exactly that.
> Sure, sadly they spread all over the world, from the very beginning,
> "We give back". Well, it's not happening. Either they should stop
> saying lies, or (the preferred solution) they need to start respecting
> their promises.

That is simply not true. It might be that Ubuntu doesn't give back as
much as Debian would like. It might also be that Debian doesn't like
what it gives back. Still, this does not give you the right to call the
people working on Ubuntu liers or thiefs. You don't seem to have a
proper fundament to base that criminations on, so you should not do them
in the first place.

Apart from this: Giving back in the form Debian would like to have it,
is not an obligatory part of open source. You have to publish what you
do, yeah, but what you are trying to say is that you'd like Ubuntu to
send their patches in an easy consumable form, e.g. requiring Ubuntu
to send their patches to our BTS. But this is like upstreams requiring
to send you a postcard: non-free.
> > If we start telling that Ubuntu people are thiefs because they
> > re-use our work to make derivative works from it, then we should be
> > consequent and call ourselves thiefs too, because we "steal" the work of
> > our upstreams.
> Hey, but we give back (patches, improvements, bug reports) to upstreams :)

Well, in every cosm there are good sheep and bad sheep. Some of us
forward their patches upstream, some don't. Some produce patches that
are ready for inclusion for upstream, some don't.
What I am trying to say: After all we as the people that make up
Debian are sitting in the glasshouse. We also have
maintainers who do not properly send there patches upstream. We also
have patches that are Debian-specific like Ubuntu has patches that are
Ubuntu-specific. There are also reports from Ubuntu developers
and contributors in our bugtracker.

> > But OTOH it would be just better and easier to not forget
> > what Debian stands for. Free Software. Everytime you might
> > feel its appropriate to tell Ubuntu (or other downstreams)
> > thiefs, it might be worth to hold in a moment and have a look
> > at our Social Contract which you accepted, when you became
> > part of Debian.
> It's not about licenses, legal or what, it's about honesty. If you
> promise to give back, you should do it. Noone have forced them to
> promise that, and noone will force them to stick to their promises,
> but when I give my word I do my best to maintain it. Maybe it's only
> me...

Well, discrimating other people is not really about honesty.

Best Regards,

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