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Re: Disputes document - metaflameage

On Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 03:04:02AM +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Branden [...] > have been telling us at length how high-handed and
> undemocratic and otherwise evil I am

This assertion is without foundation.  I have made no such claim.

> Branden [...] can complain [...] that
> obviously I'm being arrogant and cabalish

This assertion is without foundation.  I have made no such claim.

> (and even, in Branden's case, declining to deal with any
> more of his dysfunctional flameage)

Another assertion without foundation.  Where did I flame you?

I'd humbly like to suggest that putting words into the mouths of others
is not the best way to enhance the appeal of one's own position -- at
least, not if one holds as valuable the goals stated in the draft.

> Shock horror, I even admit to being swayed by private email !

The question I raised was, "should anyone *else* be swayed by private
mail to *you*?"[1]

> But, it's not their decision.  It's currently my draft, and I'll put
> what I like in it.

In that case, stating that it's from the Technical Committee may be

> Very little has been said about the actual substantive content of the
> document at all.

Quite a bit has been said.  That some feedback has been of the nature of
grammatical corrections does not mean that other feedback hasn't been
raised.  In addition to Manoj, Adam Heath, and myself, Scott Dier and
Duncan Findlay have raised points about the substantive content.

> We've had a few exchanges, but nothing like the vigourous discussion
> that there ought to be if there are real differences over what should
> be in it.

There are real differences over what should be in it.  More than once
the issues of whether your draft suggests the right course of action vis
a vis closing vs. reopening bug reports, and whether it is ideal to
leave out a discussion of bug severities have been raised.

You have not, as far as I can tell, substantively rebutted these points,
even when they were raised by people other than Manoj or myself.[2]

> The bulk of the conversation has turned into a meta-flamewar, which
> just leads to the participants getting angry.

I have done no flaming.  I have expressed disappointment in the
employment (in one instance!) of fallacious reasoning, but I have't
raised my voice about it, called anyone names, or accused anyone of any
failures of character.

> So, Manoj and Branden - and anyone else: if you are serious about your
> disagreements about the _content_ of this document, rather than just
> wanting to play politics about how it gets written, would you please
> try to participate in a constructive way ?

I have done so.  Your consistent response to my discussions of your
draft have, of late, been essentially this:

	I'm not going to reply to the rest of your mail, because I think
	it'll just generate heat and not light.[3]

> If you disagree totally with my tone, for example, you could write
> your own version and we could see which one got more support, or try
> to find compromises.  If you disagree with individual points, then we
> should try to argue them out, and if we can't agree then eventually
> someone will end up voting.

I have attempted the latter, but there are certain points you seem to be
unwilling to discuss at all.  Duncan Findlay's recent mail identified
some of these.[4]

> If you think the thing should be a GR rather than a resolution of the
> tech ctte, then write up your alternative version and when you're
> happy it's as good as you're going to get you can propose it and we
> can all vote.  (I think it's a daft idea to do it as a GR, as I say,
> but I'm not stopping you.)

The GR mechanism does have the advantage of being a well-defined
alternative mechanism for resolving this problem, if your approach is
insufficient to generate consensus.

> If noone comments substantively on my next draft, which I'm about to
> put together and post, then I'll assume that there's nothing much that
> can be done to improve it, and I'll just go back to the tech ctte and
> see if they want to vote in favour of it.

I would suggest that you address the points you've left undiscussed to
date before concluding that no one has commented substantively.[4][5][6]

[1] http://people.debian.org/~branden/iwj_disputes_draft_dispute
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2002/debian-project-200210/msg00104.html
[3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2002/debian-project-200211/msg00052.html
[4] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2002/debian-project-200211/msg00064.html
[5] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2002/debian-project-200210/msg00104.html
[6] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2002/debian-project-200211/msg00068.html

G. Branden Robinson                |    Somewhere, there is a .sig so funny
Debian GNU/Linux                   |    that reading it will cause an
branden@debian.org                 |    aneurysm.  This is not that .sig.
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |

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